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Old 02-18-2010, 10:26 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noetsi View Post
When the crusaders captured Jeruselum they slaughtered everyone they found. That has nothing at all to do with biblical christianity.

Well maybe they were in an Old Testament frame of mind.

And maybe they WERE motivated by religious fervor and a desire to reclaim the Holy Land for Christianity in which case the Moslems who held it had to be attacked. Stark is making that case; I bought his book yesterday.

Stark also makes a case that the anti Crusade feeling in current Western thought is largely a result of anti-Catholic bias of Protestant and Enlightenment scholars.

He also spends time debunking the notion of the "Dark Ages" and the notion that Arab civilzation was more advanced than Western civilization. Interesting book.
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Old 02-18-2010, 10:28 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_k_k View Post
Stark has changed a lot since I took sosh with him at UW ............
Thanks for the insight into Stark.
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Old 02-19-2010, 08:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Well maybe they were in an Old Testament frame of mind.
You welcome to cite the Old Testement verses that support killing every Jew they could find. In any case, Jesus repeatedly clarified what god had intended by the Old Testment and man not understood. That is why Christians eat pork.... Which is moot because few of the crusaders read period and in particular the bible.

Quote:
And maybe they WERE motivated by religious fervor and a desire to reclaim the Holy Land for Christianity in which case the Moslems who held it had to be attacked. Stark is making that case; I bought his book yesterday.
They were almost certainly motivated by religious fervor, as were the Jews in killing Christians. Jesus was killed by the religious leaders of His generation. That has nothing to do with the bible. And arguing that the crusades were motivated by a desire to take back the Holy Lands is very different than arguing they were motivated by a desire to stop future attacks on Christian lands, which none of the Muslims in the Holy lands were engaged in.

Quote:
Stark also makes a case that the anti Crusade feeling in current Western thought is largely a result of anti-Catholic bias of Protestant and Enlightenment scholars.
I am Roman Catholic... and Pope John Paul II appologized shortly before his death for the crusades (although the present Pope sees them more positively).
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Old 02-19-2010, 08:44 AM
 
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Reminder: This Thread is NOT about personal religious beliefs..it is about the Crusades.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:16 AM
 
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This reflects Pope John II making a formal pronouncement on the Crusades.

Quote:
Seeking forgiveness has been a leitmotif of his papacy since his election in 1978. He has apologised for the crusades, the massacre of French Protestants, the trial of Galileo and anti-semitism.
As is common with the Catholic church others don't agree.

Pope says sorry for sins of church | World news | The Guardian

History News Network (http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/23047.html - broken link)
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Old 02-19-2010, 04:19 PM
 
Location: OB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishtom29 View Post
The Christian world had been under attack by the Moslems for several hundred years...
Before the first Crusade. The Islamic Crusades were very successful. The Byzantines and Persian Empires had worn themselves out with fighting, so a power vacuum existed. Into this vacuum stormed Islam.

The Timeline

630 Two years before Muhammad's death of a fever, he launches the Tabuk Crusades, in which he led 30,000 jihadists against the Byzantine Christians.

632—634 Under the Caliphate of Abu Bakr the Muslim Crusaders reconquer and sometimes conquer for the first time the polytheists of Arabia.

633 The Muslim Crusaders, led by Khalid al—Walid, a superior but bloodthirsty military commander, whom Muhammad nicknamed the Sword of Allah for his ferocity in battle

634 At the Battle of Yarmuk in Syria the Muslim Crusaders defeat the Byzantines. Today Osama bin Laden draws inspiration from the defeat,

634—644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al—Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.

635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus

636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.

637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al—Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)

638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.

638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.

639—642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.

641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.

643—707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.

644—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.

657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali

673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire

710—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.

711—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. Muslims still think Spain belongs to them.

732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance

749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids

789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.

800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia

807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem

809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy

813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country

831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy

850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer

855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)

837—901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France

869—883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq

909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia

937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places

937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked

966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem

969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo

c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East

973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids

1003 First persecutions by al—Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed

1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al—Hakim (see 937)

1012 Beginning of al—Hakim's oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians

1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed

1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.

1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection

1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia

1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine

1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)

1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia

1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana

1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies

1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca

1090—1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands

1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970

1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099

So it was only after all of this Islamic aggressive invasions that Western Christendom launches its first Crusade.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:00 PM
 
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That time line shows essentially no agresive action against Western Europe (where the crusades came from) during the period of the crusades. By 900 the Holy lands were already Muslim controlled. It would have been a rational for an attack on the Holy lands in the 8th through 10th century, but no in 1092 nearly a century later.

It would be like Russia attacking Germany now, for the events of 1914-1918.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:14 PM
 
Location: NC
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Not all crusades were launched against Muslims in fact a fair amount of them were launched against other Christians and Pagans. For example, the fourth crusade was launched against the Christian Byzantine Greeks, the albigensian crusade was launched against the Christian Cathars and the Northern crusades were launched against the Pagans in Prussia and the Baltic states.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:43 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,149 posts, read 18,127,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noetsi View Post
It would be like Russia attacking Germany now, for the events of 1914-1918.

No it would be like Russia attacking Germany now because of the many German invasions of Russia and the Russians reasonably enough figuring that more will follow. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea on their part actually.

It's seems the Moslem world was in a perpetual state of war with the Western world (some would argue it still is); if the Westerners took advantage of a lull (and I'm not granting there was one, as I recall things were active in Spain and the Med at the time) and attacked where it was easiest to stir up emotional support for an attack that seems reasonable enough to me.

Last edited by Irishtom29; 02-19-2010 at 09:52 PM..
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:46 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
10,149 posts, read 18,127,033 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
Not all crusades were launched against Muslims in fact a fair amount of them were launched against other Christians and Pagans. For example, the fourth crusade was launched against the Christian Byzantine Greeks, the albigensian crusade was launched against the Christian Cathars and the Northern crusades were launched against the Pagans in Prussia and the Baltic states.

The Fourth Crusade wasn't launched against Constantinople, it was diverted there.

It's arguable whether or not the Cathars were Christians.
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