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Old 02-04-2019, 10:28 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
12,524 posts, read 7,954,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuppiesandKittens View Post
............. I was in Manhattan on 9/11 and my response is to try to forgive the perpetrators and try to love all Muslims.
Not all things are forgivable. I hope you never have to learn this fact, but it is a fact. No one cares where you were on 9/11.



The Muslims - at least the most radical of them - believe The Crusades never ended and that the Christians will be back. That's why G Bush was criticized for referring to The Crusades; there are Muslims who take it seriously.
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Old 02-05-2019, 12:07 PM
 
Location: San Jose
1,672 posts, read 520,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Walmsley View Post
From our vantage point of time, was there any justification for the crusades?
No. The Crusades was one of the low points in European history in my opinion. In every sense it was an absolute failure.

In the end the Crusaders (the major European powers) failed their primary objective which was to control the Holy Land.

In the process they set back Catholic and Orthodox relations by centuries by murdering Orthodox Christians and sacking Constantinople. Making the rise of the Ottoman Empire almost inevitable.
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Old 02-06-2019, 11:20 AM
Status: "POTUS Trump promises - not hot air" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
14,275 posts, read 5,647,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
No. The Crusades was one of the low points in European history in my opinion. In every sense it was an absolute failure.

In the end the Crusaders (the major European powers) failed their primary objective which was to control the Holy Land.

In the process they set back Catholic and Orthodox relations by centuries by murdering Orthodox Christians and sacking Constantinople. Making the rise of the Ottoman Empire almost inevitable.
The Muslims had advanced to Torres in France and the gates of Vienna. Doesn't their routing at that point Moderator cut: This isn't the Current Events forum. count as a success?

Last edited by mensaguy; 02-07-2019 at 05:36 AM.. Reason: Off topic remark removed.
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Old 02-06-2019, 03:01 PM
 
Location: San Jose
1,672 posts, read 520,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
The Muslims had advanced to Torres in France and the gates of Vienna. Doesn't their routing at that point Moderator cut: This isn't the Current Events forum. count as a success?
The Muslims being routed at Tours and at Vienna have no connection to the Crusades. One happened hundreds of years before the Crusades in 732 the other happened hundreds of years after in 1683.

Last edited by mensaguy; 02-07-2019 at 05:36 AM.. Reason: Quoted post edited.
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Old 02-08-2019, 08:52 PM
Status: "POTUS Trump promises - not hot air" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
14,275 posts, read 5,647,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
The Muslims being routed at Tours and at Vienna have no connection to the Crusades. One happened hundreds of years before the Crusades in 732 the other happened hundreds of years after in 1683.
That does not mean that the Muslims were not trying to invade aggressively. The Muslims were certainly no better than the crusading Christians in that regard. It's just not politically correct to teach.
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Old 02-11-2019, 01:20 PM
 
Location: San Jose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
That does not mean that the Muslims were not trying to invade aggressively. The Muslims were certainly no better than the crusading Christians in that regard. It's just not politically correct to teach.
Because the Moors invaded France in the 7th century therefore Crusaders going to the Holy Land three centuries later and butchering Muslims, Jews and Orthodox Christians is morally justifiable? Is that what you are trying to say?
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Old 02-11-2019, 08:07 PM
Status: "POTUS Trump promises - not hot air" (set 6 days ago)
 
Location: New York Area
14,275 posts, read 5,647,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
Because the Moors invaded France in the 7th century therefore Crusaders going to the Holy Land three centuries later and butchering Muslims, Jews and Orthodox Christians is morally justifiable? Is that what you are trying to say?
Why don't you read the words I wrote rather than trying to play psychologist? What I am saying is that tribal, religious and ethnic wars were the order of the day back then.
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Old 02-12-2019, 01:17 PM
 
Location: San Jose
1,672 posts, read 520,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbgusa View Post
Why don't you read the words I wrote rather than trying to play psychologist? What I am saying is that tribal, religious and ethnic wars were the order of the day back then.
And that somehow makes the Crusaders justified then? Tribal, religious and ethnic wars were the order of the day in the 20th century as well. Does that justify one group invading another groups territory then butchering the people who live there? Hardly.

Also with the Crusaders it wasn't tribal or religious as much as it was opportunistic. Crusaders killed each other, sacked both Orthodox and Catholic cities (like Constantinople and Zara), butchered minorities like Jews whenever they had the chance and in general cause a whole slew of problems that would end up haunting Europe for centuries to come.
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Old 02-12-2019, 02:14 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
75,259 posts, read 67,007,089 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFresno View Post
And that somehow makes the Crusaders justified then? Tribal, religious and ethnic wars were the order of the day in the 20th century as well. Does that justify one group invading another groups territory then butchering the people who live there? Hardly.

Also with the Crusaders it wasn't tribal or religious as much as it was opportunistic. Crusaders killed each other, sacked both Orthodox and Catholic cities (like Constantinople and Zara), butchered minorities like Jews whenever they had the chance and in general cause a whole slew of problems that would end up haunting Europe for centuries to come.
This. The Crusades weren't only against Muslims. Crusaders attacked other Europeans, as well. The Balts were the last people in Europe to Christianize, and devotedly clung to their pre-Christian religion. The Pope issued an order to forcibly convert the Balts, starting with the Prussians, who spoke a language related to, but more ancient than, Latvian and Lithuanian, and had resisted all attempts to Christianize them.

The Teutonic Knights invaded Prussia, and began what amounted to an ethnic cleansing. Those who could escape, fled west into Poland, or east into the other Baltic nations, or even further east, into Russia. Those who couldn't escape were either killed or enslaved, many eventually starving or dying of disease, after being weakened by severe poverty and/or slavery. The Prussian language was outlawed.

The Lithuanian king, seeing this holocaust take place next door to his kingdom, faked conversion to Christianity, until a generation later or so, when Lithuania was able to expel the Knights. The Germans eventually adopted the ethnonym of the Prussians as their own, absorbing what came to be called "Eastern Prussia". What remains of it, is now the Kalinin District of Russia. The remainder of the Balts did eventually adopt Christianity, though by choice, not by force.

This bit of history was rediscovered and "rehabilitated" only after the crash of the Soviet Union, when Lithuanian and Polish historians (some of Prussian descent) began Prussian revival movements, and created websites bringing this history to the broader public, and to Prussian descendants worldwide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians
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Old 02-12-2019, 05:38 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
12,524 posts, read 7,954,094 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
This. The Crusades weren't only against Muslims. Crusaders attacked other Europeans, as well. The Balts were the last people in Europe to Christianize, and devotedly clung to their pre-Christian religion. The Pope issued an order to forcibly convert the Balts, starting with the Prussians, who spoke a language related to, but more ancient than, Latvian and Lithuanian, and had resisted all attempts to Christianize them.

The Teutonic Knights invaded Prussia, and began what amounted to an ethnic cleansing. Those who could escape, fled west into Poland, or east into the other Baltic nations, or even further east, into Russia. Those who couldn't escape were either killed or enslaved, many eventually starving or dying of disease, after being weakened by severe poverty and/or slavery. The Prussian language was outlawed.

The Lithuanian king, seeing this holocaust take place next door to his kingdom, faked conversion to Christianity, until a generation later or so, when Lithuania was able to expel the Knights. The Germans eventually adopted the ethnonym of the Prussians as their own, absorbing what came to be called "Eastern Prussia". What remains of it, is now the Kalinin District of Russia. The remainder of the Balts did eventually adopt Christianity, though by choice, not by force.

This bit of history was rediscovered and "rehabilitated" only after the crash of the Soviet Union, when Lithuanian and Polish historians (some of Prussian descent) began Prussian revival movements, and created websites bringing this history to the broader public, and to Prussian descendants worldwide.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians
Seems kind of a "wash", doesn't it?
Christians killing everyone who isn't Christian and Muslims killing everyone who isn't Muslim. At any rate I can't find a place in my mind where The Crusades were "justified". Can't even discuss it.
Just something that happened - over and over, it seems.
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