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Old 05-11-2010, 12:43 AM
 
Location: New York City
2,790 posts, read 4,723,774 times
Reputation: 1776

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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloy View Post
It is not necessary to history. All history - generals and tsars.
I do not write the plot theory.
There are no bones, there are no genes, there is no armour , there are no books. NO. In China can they were. In their Europe was not.
Tsar Peter has brought to Russia the book The book from Germany. In Russia did not know about the Asian conquerors. Probably nomads went to China .
Simply. Yaroslav and Ahmat were at war against China and the Western Europe. In territory of Russia there were no huge armies from desert. In China were.
Bogdan operated army of nomads in China.
Bogdan (Ching-khan) - "God has given". The European person born in Siberia.
Tell. Why in Russia there is no "Mongolian" alphabet? There are no words.
Nomads never created the States and Empires. They lived in family - a patrimonial system.
Right. So you are saying the Mongols were just made up? 3 centuries of Russian history, from the battle on river Kalka to Kulikovo to Ugra river - all made up? By the Bolsheviks?

The Mongol conquests are well enough recorded in many countries even if the Mongols themselves did not have a writing system. Your claims are absurd and not something any credible historian will even consider.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eloy View Post
Yes. Like to speak: It is the Myth, It is the Myth... But. Trust in other Myths. Adapted Myth under a modern society. The best way to humiliate any country - to think up for them the conqueror.
The fact that the Mongol invasion hurts your pride is no reason to make things up and rewrite history. And greatness has nothing to do with it - I can hardly think of ANY nation in history that wasn't conquered at one point or another.
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:18 AM
 
Location: Saudi Arabia
1,823 posts, read 1,520,276 times
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All Genghis Kahn wanted was war, food and sex .. I once saw a documentary on the discovery channel about the mongolians .. to my surprise, what i heard was either a joke or a shocking revealation lolz .. the programme declared that the mongols are believed to be direct descendants of Genghis lol .. as he used to sleep with 10 women everyday lol .. seriously i cracked up and went blue ! ..what the heck was this man (Ghengis) lol .. the narrator explained it in a way that my jaws dropped and i cracked up lol .. no wonder the statement ''They all look the same'' hahaha
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Old 05-11-2010, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Planet Water
815 posts, read 1,277,015 times
Reputation: 199
Mongols do not damage my pride. Cherokc cannot win Spain.
They could not win that modern Moscow and other states where there was the advanced society and the perfect weapon And professional army..
Them will kill from muskets. Everybody. But not nomads from desert.
You are surprised. But. On the river Kalka and the Kulikovsky field have not found (!) archaeological proofs.
Yes. Mongols were. Nomads were not. There are no proofs.Nomads made small attacks of robbers. But. They have always been destroyed.

Last edited by eloy; 05-11-2010 at 07:47 AM..
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Old 05-11-2010, 09:56 AM
 
Location: New York City
2,790 posts, read 4,723,774 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloy View Post
Mongols do not damage my pride. Cherokc cannot win Spain.
They could not win that modern Moscow and other states where there was the advanced society and the perfect weapon And professional army..
Them will kill from muskets. Everybody. But not nomads from desert.
You are surprised. But. On the river Kalka and the Kulikovsky field have not found (!) archaeological proofs.
Yes. Mongols were. Nomads were not. There are no proofs.Nomads made small attacks of robbers. But. They have always been destroyed.
You know full well that at the time of the Mongol Conquest, Russia had neither gunpowder nor a professional army. The Mongols on the other hand had the most powerful weapon in the world at that time - the horse (something that the Spaniards had but the Native Americans didn't).

The Mongol invasion is not unique in history. In 600's Arab tribes destroyed Persia and almost destroyed the Eastern Roman Empire. Centuries earlier, Western Roman emperors paid tribute to the Huns. China struggled with nomads to its north for centuries. Why do you think they built a wall?
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Old 05-11-2010, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Planet Water
815 posts, read 1,277,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMarbles View Post
You know full well that at the time of the Mongol Conquest, Russia had neither gunpowder nor a professional army. The Mongols on the other hand had the most powerful weapon in the world at that time - the horse (something that the Spaniards had but the Native Americans didn't).

The Mongol invasion is not unique in history. In 600's Arab tribes destroyed Persia and almost destroyed the Eastern Roman Empire. Centuries earlier, Western Roman emperors paid tribute to the Huns. China struggled with nomads to its north for centuries. Why do you think they built a wall?
Be mistaken At Rusi there was all both professional army . There are no nomads. No! Anybody has found nothing! Even is not present there are no rivers where there were events! I live on places of events and I can glance in museums and reach to fields.
Prove that nomads had planes. And they could move and create problems quickly. There are no big armies! There are no bones! Already at the time of Ivans. Manufacture of muskets and gunpowder has reached perfection. And the weapon from Tula was exported to Holland. There are lists of the sold goods and the weapon.
You will not find any nomads in books , From desert , Not knew about malicious Mongols till 18 century! Paradox... Yes.?
Will find that Princes were on friendly terms with "Mongols" were their relatives, visited... So with the enemy?
Have now paid attention to these events. To solve this riddle. Why all are on friendly terms with the terrible enemy and do not resist. As будьто "Mongols" from one house and a family.
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:43 PM
 
14,725 posts, read 32,288,678 times
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eloy - Your theories are rather strange. I'm not sure if you are simply trying to promote Russian/Tsarist superiority or what. The Russian nation/empire was born out of struggles with the Mongols who settled in the area and were known as Tatars. From the 1200's to the late 1500's the Russian cities were essentially vassal states of the Tatars and paid them tribute. Russia was solidified and the Romanov dynasty founded just after the destruction of the Tatars by Ivan "The Terrible" and the defeat of the Polish usurpers and the "false Dmitri's" by the boyars who placed Michael Romanov on the throne.

Perhaps you are confusing Tatars and Mongols, but they are one in the same.
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Old 05-11-2010, 01:56 PM
 
Location: South Bay Native
12,019 posts, read 19,799,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eloy View Post
Ancestors of Hungarians peacefully moved. These nomads cannot win anybody. It is not logical! They peace, because they weak.
Weak always pretends to be peace or says lies. "Mongols" and their governors - Siberian - the slavic invention. There always there was a resistance.
I am really curious and hope to help - what is the language you are writing this in originally, and apparently translating online into English?

Maybe one of the polyglots on CD can help straighten out the English version so we can make better sense of it.
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Old 05-11-2010, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Planet Water
815 posts, read 1,277,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
eloy - Your theories are rather strange. I'm not sure if you are simply trying to promote Russian/Tsarist superiority or what. The Russian nation/empire was born out of struggles with the Mongols who settled in the area and were known as Tatars. From the 1200's to the late 1500's the Russian cities were essentially vassal states of the Tatars and paid them tribute. Russia was solidified and the Romanov dynasty founded just after the destruction of the Tatars by Ivan "The Terrible" and the defeat of the Polish usurpers and the "false Dmitri's" by the boyars who placed Michael Romanov on the throne.

Perhaps you are confusing Tatars and Mongols, but they are one in the same.
Know. Tatars at that time were not Tatars. They Were Bulgari. Tatars were others and they lived not in Kazan.
Not the imperial superiority. What for to me myths without material proofs??
Tatars are Pagans.
Tatars - not a nationality!
Slavs , Ugry , Turkis are Tatars (Pagans)
Mogol - not a nationality!
This nickname!
Understand it! There is a card.

Last edited by eloy; 05-11-2010 at 03:02 PM..
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Old 05-11-2010, 03:41 PM
 
14,725 posts, read 32,288,678 times
Reputation: 14114
I think "DontH8Me" is right, we need a better translation of what you are saying into English and vice versa. It seems that your arguments are stemming from semantics that is really just being exacerbated by the language barrier.

If I can make a stab at what you are getting at, you are correct that the Tatars were not "Mongols". The Tatars were heterogeneous group of nomadic peoples who were made part of the Mongol empire and later became known as the "Golden Horde". If this is where you are coming from, then you are correct on the context that "Mongols" never really swept out of the Gobi Desert and conquered Russia. The group that the Mongols led were made up of many various ethnic groups that were united by the Mongols. Tatars were not a distinct group with common features and Tatars (who are still an identified culture/minority within Russia and the Republics) run the gamut from Mongolian in appearance to Caucasian.
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Old 05-11-2010, 04:10 PM
 
Location: Planet Water
815 posts, read 1,277,015 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJGOAT View Post
I think "DontH8Me" is right, we need a better translation of what you are saying into English and vice versa. It seems that your arguments are stemming from semantics that is really just being exacerbated by the language barrier.

If I can make a stab at what you are getting at, you are correct that the Tatars were not "Mongols". The Tatars were heterogeneous group of nomadic peoples who were made part of the Mongol empire and later became known as the "Golden Horde". If this is where you are coming from, then you are correct on the context that "Mongols" never really swept out of the Gobi Desert and conquered Russia. The group that the Mongols led were made up of many various ethnic groups that were united by the Mongols. Tatars were not a distinct group with common features and Tatars (who are still an identified culture/minority within Russia and the Republics) run the gamut from Mongolian in appearance to Caucasian.
Total. Princes knew that there are crusaders and have organised resistance. It was no empire of conquerors. It were defenders. Big group against hristians. In the European of a part princes were with names:
Yaroslav, Dmitry Donskoj, Alexander Nevsky. On the Asian part they had the surname: Chingis Khan, Khan Mamaj, Khan Betu. Clearly??? They operated an army - Tatars (all ethnic groups of pagans).
http://darislav.com/images/stories/tartar1.jpg
Tatars and the Horde = Red Army.

Last edited by eloy; 05-11-2010 at 04:36 PM..
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