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Old 06-05-2010, 09:52 AM
 
3,175 posts, read 3,640,339 times
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I wasn't paying much attention when watergate was happening, I tried to come in later but it had gotten so complicated that it was hard for me to grasp.
I finally watched the actual Frost/Nixon interview last night and Pres Nixon really moved my heart. I don't know if he was lying to Frost, telling the truth or a little bit of both but for me last night, he truly moved me.

To the ones who followed it from the beginning, what are your thoughts?
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Old 06-05-2010, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,049 posts, read 34,477,670 times
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Watergate was inevitable; Richard Nixon was a demonstrable paranoid, going back to his famous incident with Helen Gahagen Douglas. Even though the facts pointed to an overwhelming victory for him in 1972, he was continually worried that he was about to be thrown out of office.

If you've ever read his autobiography (and anyone who does deserves a medal for slogging through a book that long), I don't think he'll be tugging at your heartstrings for long. The man cared only for himself.
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Old 06-05-2010, 11:07 AM
 
1,503 posts, read 1,149,808 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mag32gie View Post
I wasn't paying much attention when watergate was happening, I tried to come in later but it had gotten so complicated that it was hard for me to grasp.
I finally watched the actual Frost/Nixon interview last night and Pres Nixon really moved my heart. I don't know if he was lying to Frost, telling the truth or a little bit of both but for me last night, he truly moved me.

To the ones who followed it from the beginning, what are your thoughts?
The only way to tell when Nixon was lying was to watch his lips. When they moved, he was lying.
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Old 06-05-2010, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Fairfield, CT
6,981 posts, read 10,887,170 times
Reputation: 8821
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhinestone View Post
The only way to tell when Nixon was lying was to watch his lips. When they moved, he was lying.
It's probably time to move beyond that. It's not that simple.

I would say that Watergate was probably inevitable given not only Nixon's personality, but the precedents set by his predecessors and the political climate of the time.

While many would like to believe that Nixon's actions in Watergate were somehow unique to him, they actually were not. LBJ did a lot of the same things, and so did the sainted John F. Kennedy. The use of the IRS as a weapon against political enemies went back to Roosevelt. So did bugging, taping, etc. Nothing that Nixon did was really new. He just happened to be there when the rules changed.
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Old 06-05-2010, 11:58 AM
 
2,790 posts, read 6,330,911 times
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Well, for my generation, college kids did not race back to the dormitory to watch their soaps..... they raced back to watch the hearings. It was mesmerizing. I felt great sympathy for the public humiliation that Pat Nixon and Martha Mitchell endured. The rest of the lot should have been keel-hauled.
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:14 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 36,908,857 times
Reputation: 15038
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzleman View Post
It's probably time to move beyond that. It's not that simple.

I would say that Watergate was probably inevitable given not only Nixon's personality, but the precedents set by his predecessors and the political climate of the time.

While many would like to believe that Nixon's actions in Watergate were somehow unique to him, they actually were not. LBJ did a lot of the same things, and so did the sainted John F. Kennedy. The use of the IRS as a weapon against political enemies went back to Roosevelt. So did bugging, taping, etc. Nothing that Nixon did was really new. He just happened to be there when the rules changed.
Excuse me?!?

What burglary of the Republican National Committee did LBJ or Kennedy commit?

What Attorney General during the LBJ or Kennedy administration ran a private fund for political espionage?

What White House Counsel and other top White House aids in LBJ or Kennedy's administration pay those under investigation money to keep quiet?

When did LBJ or Kennedy order such hush money to be paid?

When did LBJ or Kennedy order their Attorney General to fire a special prosecutor and then force the resignation of that Attorney General and his Assistant for refusing to do so?


Let's look at the Articles of Impeachment and then tell me that this was SOP for past administrations.

Article 1: Obstruction of Justice.

In his conduct of the office of the President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has prevented, obstructed, and impeded the administration of justice, in that: On June 17, 1972, and prior thereto, agents of the Committee for the Re-Election of the President committed unlawful entry of the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee in Washington, District of Columbia, for the purpose of securing political intelligence. Subsequent thereto, Richard M. Nixon, using the powers of his high office, engaged personally and through his subordinates and agents in a course of conduct or plan designed to delay, impede and obstruct investigations of such unlawful entry; to cover up, conceal and protect those responsible and to conceal the existence and scope of other unlawful covert activities. The means used to implement this course of conduct or plan have included one or more of the following:

(1) Making or causing to be made false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States.

(2) Withholding relevant and material evidence or information from lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States.

(3) Approving, condoning, acquiescing in, and counseling witnesses with respect to the giving of false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States and false or misleading testimony in duly instituted judicial and congressional proceedings.

(4) Interfering or endeavoring to interfere with the conduct of investigations by the Department of Justice of the United States, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force and congressional committees.

(5) Approving, condoning, and acquiescing in, the surreptitious payments of substantial sums of money for the purpose of obtaining the silence or influencing the testimony of witnesses, potential witnesses or individuals who participated in such unlawful entry and other illegal activities.

(6) Endeavoring to misuse the Central Intelligence Agency, an agency of the United States.

(7) Disseminating information received from officers of the Department of Justice of the United States to subjects of investigations conducted by lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States for the purpose of aiding and assisting such subjects in their attempts to avoid criminal liability.

(8) Making false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation has been conducted with respect to allegation of misconduct on the part of personnel of the Executive Branch of the United States and personnel of the Committee for the Re-Election of the President, and that there was no involvement of such personnel in such misconduct; or

(9) Endeavoring to cause prospective defendants, and individuals duly tried and convicted, to expect favored treatment and consideration in return for their silence or false testimony, or rewarding individuals for their silence or false testimony.

In all of this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

(Approved by a vote of 27-11 by the House Judiciary Committee on Saturday, July 27, 1974.)

Article 2: Abuse of Power.

Using the powers of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in disregard of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has repeatedly engaged in conduct violating the constitutional rights of citizens, imparting the due and proper administration of justice and the conduct of lawful inquiries, or contravening the laws governing agencies of the executive branch and the purposes of these agencies.
This conduct has included one or more of the following:

(1) He has, acting personally and through his subordinated and agents, endeavored to obtain from the Internal Revenue Service, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, confidential information contained in income tax returns for purposes not authorized by law, and to cause, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, income tax audits or other income tax investigation to be initiated or conducted in a discriminatory manner.

(2) He misused the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, and other executive personnel, in violation or disregard of the constitutional rights of citizens, by directing or authorizing such agencies or personnel to conduct or continue electronic surveillance or other investigations for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; he did direct, authorize, or permit the use of information obtained thereby for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; and he did direct the concealment of certain records made by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of electronic surveillance.

(3) He has, acting personally and through his subordinates and agents, in violation or disregard of the constitutional rights of citizens, authorized and permitted to be maintained a secret investigative unit within the office of the President, financed in part with money derived from campaign contributions to him, which unlawfully utilized the resources of the Central Intelligence Agency, engaged in covert and unlawful activities, and attempted to prejudice the constitutional right of an accused to a fair trial.

(4) He has failed to take care that the laws were faithfully executed by failing to act when he knew or had reason to know that his close subordinates endeavored to impede and frustrate lawful inquiries by duly constituted executive; judicial and legislative entities concerning the unlawful entry into the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee, and the cover-up thereof, and concerning other unlawful activities including those relating to the confirmation of Richard Kleindienst as attorney general of the United States, the electronic surveillance of private citizens, the break-in into the office of Dr. Lewis Fielding, and the campaign financing practices of the Committee to Re-elect the President.

(5) In disregard of the rule of law: he knowingly misused the executive power by interfering with agencies of the executive branch: including the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Criminal Division and the Office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force of the Department of Justice, in violation of his duty to take care that the laws by faithfully executed.

In all of this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

(Approved 28-10 by the House Judiciary Committee on Monday, July 29, 1974.)

Article 3: Contempt of Congress.

In his conduct of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, contrary to his oath faithfully to execute the office of the President of the United States, and to the best of his ability preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, had failed without lawful cause or excuse, to produce papers and things as directed by duly authorized subpoenas issued by the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives, on April 11, 1974, May 15, 1974, May 30, 1974, and June 24, 1974, and willfully disobeyed such subpoenas. The subpoenaed papers and things were deemed necessary by the Committee in order to resolve by direct evidence fundamental, factual questions relating to Presidential direction, knowledge or approval of actions demonstrated by other evidence to be substantial grounds for impeachment of the President. In refusing to produce these papers and things, Richard M. Nixon, substituting his judgement as to what materials were necessary for the inquiry, interposed the powers of the Presidency against the lawful subpoenas of the House of Representatives, thereby assuming to himself functions and judgments necessary to the exercise of the sole power of impeachment vested by Constitution in the House of Representatives.

In all this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice, and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore, Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial and removal from office.

(Approved 21-17 by the House Judiciary Committee on Tuesday, July 30, 1974.)
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:14 PM
 
1,503 posts, read 1,149,808 times
Reputation: 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzleman View Post
It's probably time to move beyond that. It's not that simple.

I would say that Watergate was probably inevitable given not only Nixon's personality, but the precedents set by his predecessors and the political climate of the time.

While many would like to believe that Nixon's actions in Watergate were somehow unique to him, they actually were not. LBJ did a lot of the same things, and so did the sainted John F. Kennedy. The use of the IRS as a weapon against political enemies went back to Roosevelt. So did bugging, taping, etc. Nothing that Nixon did was really new. He just happened to be there when the rules changed.
LOL, Nixon was the biggest crook ever elected President. If he hadn't been let off and pardoned, he would have been impeached, convicted and sentenced to jail. Nineteen Nixon cronies were convicted of crimes associated with Watergate.
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:39 PM
 
3,175 posts, read 3,640,339 times
Reputation: 3747
At that time did anybody feel compassion for him after watching the last Frost interview?
As they all began to go to prison, what were their feelings towards him? Did they stay loyal or begin to hate him?
Just wondering about these things, I was not paying attention during this time.
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Fairfield, CT
6,981 posts, read 10,887,170 times
Reputation: 8821
Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Excuse me?!?

What burglary of the Republican National Committee did LBJ or Kennedy commit?

What Attorney General during the LBJ or Kennedy administration ran a private fund for political espionage?

What White House Counsel and other top White House aids in LBJ or Kennedy's administration pay those under investigation money to keep quiet?

When did LBJ or Kennedy order such hush money to be paid?

When did LBJ or Kennedy order their Attorney General to fire a special prosecutor and then force the resignation of that Attorney General and his Assistant for refusing to do so?


Let's look at the Articles of Impeachment and then tell me that this was SOP for past administrations.

Article 1: Obstruction of Justice.

In his conduct of the office of the President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has prevented, obstructed, and impeded the administration of justice, in that: On June 17, 1972, and prior thereto, agents of the Committee for the Re-Election of the President committed unlawful entry of the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee in Washington, District of Columbia, for the purpose of securing political intelligence. Subsequent thereto, Richard M. Nixon, using the powers of his high office, engaged personally and through his subordinates and agents in a course of conduct or plan designed to delay, impede and obstruct investigations of such unlawful entry; to cover up, conceal and protect those responsible and to conceal the existence and scope of other unlawful covert activities. The means used to implement this course of conduct or plan have included one or more of the following:

(1) Making or causing to be made false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States.

(2) Withholding relevant and material evidence or information from lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States.

(3) Approving, condoning, acquiescing in, and counseling witnesses with respect to the giving of false or misleading statements to lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States and false or misleading testimony in duly instituted judicial and congressional proceedings.

(4) Interfering or endeavoring to interfere with the conduct of investigations by the Department of Justice of the United States, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force and congressional committees.

(5) Approving, condoning, and acquiescing in, the surreptitious payments of substantial sums of money for the purpose of obtaining the silence or influencing the testimony of witnesses, potential witnesses or individuals who participated in such unlawful entry and other illegal activities.

(6) Endeavoring to misuse the Central Intelligence Agency, an agency of the United States.

(7) Disseminating information received from officers of the Department of Justice of the United States to subjects of investigations conducted by lawfully authorized investigative officers and employes of the United States for the purpose of aiding and assisting such subjects in their attempts to avoid criminal liability.

(8) Making false or misleading public statements for the purpose of deceiving the people of the United States into believing that a thorough and complete investigation has been conducted with respect to allegation of misconduct on the part of personnel of the Executive Branch of the United States and personnel of the Committee for the Re-Election of the President, and that there was no involvement of such personnel in such misconduct; or

(9) Endeavoring to cause prospective defendants, and individuals duly tried and convicted, to expect favored treatment and consideration in return for their silence or false testimony, or rewarding individuals for their silence or false testimony.

In all of this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

(Approved by a vote of 27-11 by the House Judiciary Committee on Saturday, July 27, 1974.)

Article 2: Abuse of Power.

Using the powers of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, in violation of his constitutional oath faithfully to execute the office of President of the United States and, to the best of his ability, preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in disregard of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, has repeatedly engaged in conduct violating the constitutional rights of citizens, imparting the due and proper administration of justice and the conduct of lawful inquiries, or contravening the laws governing agencies of the executive branch and the purposes of these agencies.
This conduct has included one or more of the following:

(1) He has, acting personally and through his subordinated and agents, endeavored to obtain from the Internal Revenue Service, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, confidential information contained in income tax returns for purposes not authorized by law, and to cause, in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens, income tax audits or other income tax investigation to be initiated or conducted in a discriminatory manner.

(2) He misused the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Secret Service, and other executive personnel, in violation or disregard of the constitutional rights of citizens, by directing or authorizing such agencies or personnel to conduct or continue electronic surveillance or other investigations for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; he did direct, authorize, or permit the use of information obtained thereby for purposes unrelated to national security, the enforcement of laws, or any other lawful function of his office; and he did direct the concealment of certain records made by the Federal Bureau of Investigation of electronic surveillance.

(3) He has, acting personally and through his subordinates and agents, in violation or disregard of the constitutional rights of citizens, authorized and permitted to be maintained a secret investigative unit within the office of the President, financed in part with money derived from campaign contributions to him, which unlawfully utilized the resources of the Central Intelligence Agency, engaged in covert and unlawful activities, and attempted to prejudice the constitutional right of an accused to a fair trial.

(4) He has failed to take care that the laws were faithfully executed by failing to act when he knew or had reason to know that his close subordinates endeavored to impede and frustrate lawful inquiries by duly constituted executive; judicial and legislative entities concerning the unlawful entry into the headquarters of the Democratic National Committee, and the cover-up thereof, and concerning other unlawful activities including those relating to the confirmation of Richard Kleindienst as attorney general of the United States, the electronic surveillance of private citizens, the break-in into the office of Dr. Lewis Fielding, and the campaign financing practices of the Committee to Re-elect the President.

(5) In disregard of the rule of law: he knowingly misused the executive power by interfering with agencies of the executive branch: including the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Criminal Division and the Office of Watergate Special Prosecution Force of the Department of Justice, in violation of his duty to take care that the laws by faithfully executed.

In all of this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial, and removal from office.

(Approved 28-10 by the House Judiciary Committee on Monday, July 29, 1974.)

Article 3: Contempt of Congress.

In his conduct of the office of President of the United States, Richard M. Nixon, contrary to his oath faithfully to execute the office of the President of the United States, and to the best of his ability preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States, and in violation of his constitutional duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed, had failed without lawful cause or excuse, to produce papers and things as directed by duly authorized subpoenas issued by the Committee on the Judiciary of the House of Representatives, on April 11, 1974, May 15, 1974, May 30, 1974, and June 24, 1974, and willfully disobeyed such subpoenas. The subpoenaed papers and things were deemed necessary by the Committee in order to resolve by direct evidence fundamental, factual questions relating to Presidential direction, knowledge or approval of actions demonstrated by other evidence to be substantial grounds for impeachment of the President. In refusing to produce these papers and things, Richard M. Nixon, substituting his judgement as to what materials were necessary for the inquiry, interposed the powers of the Presidency against the lawful subpoenas of the House of Representatives, thereby assuming to himself functions and judgments necessary to the exercise of the sole power of impeachment vested by Constitution in the House of Representatives.

In all this, Richard M. Nixon has acted in a manner contrary to his trust as President and subversive of constitutional government, to the great prejudice of the cause of law and justice, and to the manifest injury of the people of the United States.

Wherefore, Richard M. Nixon, by such conduct, warrants impeachment and trial and removal from office.

(Approved 21-17 by the House Judiciary Committee on Tuesday, July 30, 1974.)
If you think LBJ and JFK didn't engage in some of that sort of activity, you're quite naive. They simply weren't caught, and they had Congresses that wouldn't have investigated them even if they had been caught.
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Fairfield, CT
6,981 posts, read 10,887,170 times
Reputation: 8821
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhinestone View Post
LOL, Nixon was the biggest crook ever elected President. If he hadn't been let off and pardoned, he would have been impeached, convicted and sentenced to jail. Nineteen Nixon cronies were convicted of crimes associated with Watergate.
Other presidents could have suffered the same consequences. I'm not saying Nixon was right, just that he wasn't the only one doing it. The idea that Nixon was this major exception to the rule is a delusion some people are still walking around with, all these years later, even after all sorts of revelations about presidents like LBJ have become known.
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