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Old 06-27-2013, 10:27 PM
 
1,315 posts, read 3,216,746 times
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I just had new mid grade KCMA certified maple wood kitchen cabinets from a major nationwide manufacturer installed last week and I'm noticing a few defects already. First, there is some de-lamination/peeling on the inside top part of one cabinet. I notified the dealer/kitchen designer and a claim was put in. Not sure what that means specifically.

I have noticed with two doors on two different upper cabinets that they appear to be warped, for a lack of a better term, as the top portion of these doors are not flush with the cabinet (they bow out). When you push the slightly bowed out doors when they are closed on the upper part of the door, they make a rattle/vibrate sound vs the door right next to them on the same cabinet. Can this be adjusted by the installer or does it require a new door? These are semi-full overlay, framed upper wall cabinets. One cabinet that has the warp/bowing out is 42 inches, the other is 36 inches. Each door has three hinges.

In addition, on one cabinet, the bottom horizontal pieces on the doors are at different heights. They weren't cut evenly at the factory. The left door bottom panel has been cut 1/8" shorter than the same panel on the right door, and when these two doors are leveled properly by the installer it will become even more exaggerated to the eye, since this is the centerpiece cabinet. A ruler/tape measure verifies this as does the eye when you look at it straight on, at an angle, and from a distance.

Another issue I just noticed is that the top portion of the drawer box piece that is attached to the face of the cabinet is beyond rough and "chewed" looking. The same piece on other drawers do not feel like they have been sanded smooth and there is a wide range of color variation in them. On the other hand, in the bathroom vanity cabinet ordered at the same time from the same manufacturer that same piece of wood that is attached to the faceplate is absolutely uniform in color, matches the rest of the drawers and is super smooth. The drawers are soft close, full extension and dovetailed.

Also, when some of the doors close on the soft close part, there is a slight creak. Will this go away in time as the door gets used?

Has anyone ever experienced these flaws before and what are the best courses of action to remedy them? Should I direct all my complaints to the dealer/kitchen designer only, or should I independently contact the manufacturer as well?

 
Old 06-27-2013, 10:35 PM
 
1,315 posts, read 3,216,746 times
Reputation: 801
Here are some pictures that illustrate the above points.

http://claspics.com/193h1buu/higvvk37
 
Old 06-27-2013, 10:58 PM
 
Location: Houston, Texas
10,447 posts, read 49,576,597 times
Reputation: 10614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happs View Post
I just had new mid grade KCMA certified maple wood kitchen cabinets from a major nationwide manufacturer installed last week and I'm noticing a few defects already. First, there is some de-lamination/peeling on the inside top part of one cabinet. I notified the dealer/kitchen designer and a claim was put in. Not sure what that means specifically.

I have noticed with two doors on two different upper cabinets that they appear to be warped, for a lack of a better term, as the top portion of these doors are not flush with the cabinet (they bow out). When you push the slightly bowed out doors when they are closed on the upper part of the door, they make a rattle/vibrate sound vs the door right next to them on the same cabinet. Can this be adjusted by the installer or does it require a new door? These are semi-full overlay, framed upper wall cabinets. One cabinet that has the warp/bowing out is 42 inches, the other is 36 inches. Each door has three hinges.

In addition, on one cabinet, the bottom horizontal pieces on the doors are at different heights. They weren't cut evenly at the factory. The left door bottom panel has been cut 1/8" shorter than the same panel on the right door, and when these two doors are leveled properly by the installer it will become even more exaggerated to the eye, since this is the centerpiece cabinet. A ruler/tape measure verifies this as does the eye when you look at it straight on, at an angle, and from a distance.

Another issue I just noticed is that the top portion of the drawer box piece that is attached to the face of the cabinet is beyond rough and "chewed" looking. The same piece on other drawers do not feel like they have been sanded smooth and there is a wide range of color variation in them. On the other hand, in the bathroom vanity cabinet ordered at the same time from the same manufacturer that same piece of wood that is attached to the faceplate is absolutely uniform in color, matches the rest of the drawers and is super smooth. The drawers are soft close, full extension and dovetailed.

Also, when some of the doors close on the soft close part, there is a slight creak. Will this go away in time as the door gets used?

Has anyone ever experienced these flaws before and what are the best courses of action to remedy them? Should I direct all my complaints to the dealer/kitchen designer only, or should I independently contact the manufacturer as well?
Whew I'll take one at a time and be brief on each one.

First if you got some mid grade brand that is KCMA certified then you will have some warranty that will be honored. All issues need to be brought to the seller/ your dealer. The purchaser has no access to the dealer REP unless they bring the REP in. Which does happen often enough.

Kitchen cabinets are just that. Cabinets. They are not fine pieces of air loam quality furniture pieces. That means they are not perfect. Even HGTV, the real cause of the devastation of the construction industry admits that in construction, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PERFECT. It just does not exist. Sometimes I am cursed with having to put in a Woodmode kitchen, perhaps the 2nd or 3rd most expensive cabinet line. No perfection there either. Please don't expect too much.

Doors may be warped, it's not unusual. Often times a hinge adjustment can be made to correct it, if not then tell the dealer and they get you a new one. No question asked. It is the cabinet installer's job to adjust the doors after installation but not many do. They are lazy but it's their job. 2 things. Doors are simply fastened to the frame on the assembly line. No effort is or needs to be made to adjust the doors. They MUST be adjusted on site after installation. 2nd thing is almost all major and all small cabinet manufacturers DO NOT make or produce their own doors. They are made by outside vendors. They are 2 separate types of businesses. A cabinet manufacturer and a cabinet door manufacturer. When you see 2 doors on the same box and one is an eighth or whatever bigger, it's usually because one door was made on another shift after the shaper blades were sharpened. A shaper bit is like a router bit. If you sharpen it, the profile/detail/size differs. If you buy crown molding today, and a month down the road have to buy another piece to match. It may well be different ever so slightly and will not match. Because shaper bits are sharpened quite often which will product a different shape.

A big problem with simply ordering a new door is young minimum wage kids pull a replacement door from a shelf that is already boxed and labeled. Then it gets shipped to your dealer who brings it to you. The door can not be inspected for color variation or size differentials. This sucks but that's how production works.


Drawer box rough. The components that make up a drawer box are piled very high. A man assembles them on a large template on a table with foot peddles he presses to compress the dovetails and another peddle clamps and yet another shoots nails into it. The man picks the parts from piles next to him without really looking at them. If one feels rough he normally will not toss it. Yes it's wrong but he is just a factory worker making scab wages. At the end of the line, some quality control person should catch the less then desirable part/s and reject it. Often times they too are making scab wages and likely are not super motivated to do the right thing. A drawer box if it's as bad as you say should be replaced by your dealer. It is likely maple natural and can be sanded and sprayed with clear coat for a quick fix.

I hear the creek on many drawers with the soft close. When screwing stile to stile, the installer screws holes and the sawdust settles on the guides. This sawdust combines with the machine oil on the guides and makes it like a guey and thick substance causing the guide to operate less then perfect. Wiping this oiled sawdust off and spraying some spray oil on the guides normally stops the squeak.

I missed the delamination part. You talking PB with melamine or laminate finish? Either way it is a warranty issue. A simple fix, rather then replacing the whole cabinet will be to reskin that portion of the interior. It's simple and correct procedure. They just glue and lay a sized piece over the damaged section. It's done all the time and often times this is the fix specified in the warranty. Some consumers cry they want a whole new cabinet box. Hogwash. Don't be that way.

May I ask who the cabinet manufacturer is?
Hope that covers much of it. Good luck with everything
 
Old 06-28-2013, 10:07 AM
 
1,315 posts, read 3,216,746 times
Reputation: 801
Thanks for your informative and detailed response. The manufacturer is Cardell. When the cabinet dealer/KD puts in a claim, what does that mean and what happens?
 
Old 06-28-2013, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Houston, Texas
10,447 posts, read 49,576,597 times
Reputation: 10614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happs View Post
Thanks for your informative and detailed response. The manufacturer is Cardell. When the cabinet dealer/KD puts in a claim, what does that mean and what happens?
Cardell is a decent product. Not super great but very good. I worked for them back in the late 90s in Vegas. Those pics show me what I felt I covered I hope. The drawer pic is despicable and even a drunk quality control person at the end of the assembly line should have red flagged that. Dumb azzes like that make us all look bad.

Your dealer don't put in a claim, that just sounds good. Your sales person will call the customer service person assigned to their account/store. Normally, at least my experience, I could just say hey this is what you people sent me......I need a new door for a W3042 in maple bay. Is your color called Bay? I think it is. The customer service person will simply send me a new door my punchout person will go install it. If the dealer is small and has no on staff crew then the salesperson might just install your door.

Honestly, dealers hate this crap as much as the customer because the manufacturer DOES NOT pay us to go replace a door that they should not have sent out in the first place. We do that for free. And if a store has staff punch out people, they get paid to do it so the dealer actually loses money on warranty issues. The manufacturer never offers any trouble honoring the bad parts but they do not pay the labor to install them.

One or 2 minor items are never questioned. If I call and say 10 doors are bad then they will send out the area REP to look and verify. In a serious case like this, again the manufacturer will give us all the replacement parts and not labor but they usually give us a credit to be determined on the next order we do.
Where is your crown molding? You can't leave it like that!!
 
Old 06-28-2013, 06:51 PM
 
1,315 posts, read 3,216,746 times
Reputation: 801
I placed the order in late April and received 30 out of 41 pieces on June 14. 11 pieces (mostly trim pieces and crown moulding) are backordered. I was told this when the delivery driver came to my house. No definite ETA for them either. Hence, the installer hasn't completed the job and the KD/dealer hasn't been paid in full.

I took a picture of all the top parts of the drawers that are attached to the back of the face frames and they vary in color and smoothness. There are two pictures of the drawer that has what looks like are saw marks on it and an unattractive finish to the wood. The two smaller sized drawers are the bathroom vanity drawers which look great and what the other drawers in the kitchen should look like and have--a smooth finish and a color to match the rest of the sides of the drawer.

193H1BUU/HII2 - ClasPics

http://claspics.com/193h1buu/hii2imej

Would it be beneficial to me to write a letter to anyone at Cardell and express my disappointment? Per the website, the only pertinent name they give is that of the CEO/owner.
 
Old 06-28-2013, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Houston, Texas
10,447 posts, read 49,576,597 times
Reputation: 10614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happs View Post
I placed the order in late April and received 30 out of 41 pieces on June 14. 11 pieces (mostly trim pieces and crown moulding) are backordered. I was told this when the delivery driver came to my house. No definite ETA for them either. Hence, the installer hasn't completed the job and the KD/dealer hasn't been paid in full.

I took a picture of all the top parts of the drawers that are attached to the back of the face frames and they vary in color and smoothness. There are two pictures of the drawer that has what looks like are saw marks on it and an unattractive finish to the wood. The two smaller sized drawers are the bathroom vanity drawers which look great and what the other drawers in the kitchen should look like and have--a smooth finish and a color to match the rest of the sides of the drawer.

193H1BUU/HII2 - ClasPics

193H1BUU/HII2 - ClasPics

Would it be beneficial to me to write a letter to anyone at Cardell and express my disappointment? Per the website, the only pertinent name they give is that of the CEO/owner.
Hmmm 6 weeks to get cabinets from a company who has a 3 week delivery turn around? Strike 1. And being so short with backorders with 6 weeks to get it right? Strike 2. And they don't even know an ETA for the balance of simple trim??? STRIKE 3 AND THEY ARE OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ya know, we been dealing with a new company called Wolf Cabinets. They seem to be the king of backorders. It drives us crazy!!! When was the last time you went into McDonalds for a Cheeseburger and they told you sorry we ran out of Hamburgers? When was the last time you went into a bar and asked for a beer and they told you sorry we ran out of beer? See how utterly stupid this is? Shame on them.

Today most manufacturers of any type who make many of the same item over and over and over again use what's called "Lean Six Sigma Black Belt" system. I won't go into explaining this process now but it was invented by Toyota I do believe which allows high production on demand with little to no inventory. How the hell does a cabinet company run out of trim which they normally stock in massive quantities because it takes up no space!!

No a letter to the company would be ignored. If you get no satisfaction from your dealer then you can attempt to call the 1 800 number for customer service and see what's up. What has happened IS NOT your dealers fault but it is their job to fix it. IMMEDIATLY!!!!
 
Old 06-29-2013, 01:09 PM
 
1,315 posts, read 3,216,746 times
Reputation: 801
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertsun41 View Post
Hmmm 6 weeks to get cabinets from a company who has a 3 week delivery turn around? Strike 1. And being so short with backorders with 6 weeks to get it right? Strike 2. And they don't even know an ETA for the balance of simple trim??? STRIKE 3 AND THEY ARE OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ya know, we been dealing with a new company called Wolf Cabinets. They seem to be the king of backorders. It drives us crazy!!! When was the last time you went into McDonalds for a Cheeseburger and they told you sorry we ran out of Hamburgers? When was the last time you went into a bar and asked for a beer and they told you sorry we ran out of beer? See how utterly stupid this is? Shame on them.

Today most manufacturers of any type who make many of the same item over and over and over again use what's called "Lean Six Sigma Black Belt" system. I won't go into explaining this process now but it was invented by Toyota I do believe which allows high production on demand with little to no inventory. How the hell does a cabinet company run out of trim which they normally stock in massive quantities because it takes up no space!!

No a letter to the company would be ignored. If you get no satisfaction from your dealer then you can attempt to call the 1 800 number for customer service and see what's up. What has happened IS NOT your dealers fault but it is their job to fix it. IMMEDIATLY!!!!

On an encouraging note, I received word that the KD/dealer contacted the local Cardell rep and asked him to make an on-site visit to look at these issues. If that were to take place, do you have any tips for me as a customer on what to say or not say to the Cardell rep? Is my KD/dealer in this scenario an advocate for me or a neutral party? When I was shopping other Cardell dealers in my area, one mentioned to me in mumbo jumbo how he is a distributor and sees all orders in my area. Could there be a chance that he is the Cardell area rep? If so, I would protest because he came out to my house for a bid and after a lot of back and forth I decided not to use him. I think he would be biased because I didn't use his KD company.
 
Old 06-29-2013, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Houston, Texas
10,447 posts, read 49,576,597 times
Reputation: 10614
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happs View Post
On an encouraging note, I received word that the KD/dealer contacted the local Cardell rep and asked him to make an on-site visit to look at these issues. If that were to take place, do you have any tips for me as a customer on what to say or not say to the Cardell rep? Is my KD/dealer in this scenario an advocate for me or a neutral party? When I was shopping other Cardell dealers in my area, one mentioned to me in mumbo jumbo how he is a distributor and sees all orders in my area. Could there be a chance that he is the Cardell area rep? If so, I would protest because he came out to my house for a bid and after a lot of back and forth I decided not to use him. I think he would be biased because I didn't use his KD company.
It's good that the area REP is coming to see you. He wants to be on your side because if he don't satisfy you then you go above him whom HE has to answer to. The REP has authority to approve everything you need to finish and can also put word into the plant to expedite your missing parts. Your dealer can not do this although they can put in phone calls to customer service but that didn't seem to work thus far did it. Your dealer is just a neutral party. They may just stand there and say nothing or just add their 2 cents here and there. Everyone should be on your side. Everyone has the same common goal.

I was a dealer for a long time and I did not have any access to any other dealers orders. Whoever told you that was a liar and I'm glad you did not buy from them. An Area REP can not also be a store owner too. Too much conflict of interest. Besides, all Area REPs I know spend most of their life on the road and have no time to run a store. They usually cover from 5 to 8 states while overseeing all that manufacturers dealers. Imagine the time one must devote.

Sheesh honestly in all the years I worked directly with Cardell I can't even remember needing to deal with issues because there were none. It was mostly tract work which meant there were a few models per tract and nothing changed. Same 3 kitchens over and over and over and over again.

A complete order and delivery starts with a great Experienced Designer who knows how to measure and order things the 20/20 drawing does not even show. EXPERIENCE!!!!!! I have always said the very best Kitchen Designers are ex Cabinet Installers. I have also earned Masco Certified Installer too. 30 plus years for yours truly and I only achieved the expensive and elusive prestigious CKD and CBD certification. To earn CMKBD which is short for Master takes some 40 years to earn and last list I saw there are only 18 in the whole world. We had one Certified Master Kitchen and Bath Designer in Houston and he just died about 4 months ago. Bob was 80 something and still drawing kitchens till the day he died. Amazing!!! Pretty powerful stuff there to me....silly and boring to others I'm sure.
 
Old 06-29-2013, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Houston
248 posts, read 860,325 times
Reputation: 211
Quote:
An Area REP can not also be a store owner too. Too much conflict of interest. Besides, all Area REPs I know spend most of their life on the road and have no time to run a store. They usually cover from 5 to 8 states while overseeing all that manufacturers dealers. Imagine the time one must devote.
Actually this does occur in this crazy cabinet business climate we have today. I know this for a fact.

The rep Happs is meeting may actually own the other store.

Last edited by MCS1; 06-29-2013 at 06:53 PM..
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