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We just left Home Depot, and they have a really great sale on Kraftmaid Cabinets.
Question is for the end panels, should we go with the standard engineered end panels, or the upgraded plywood end panels?
Thank you,....marc
10% off is not a sale. Run away fast. You should be jumping on a sale from 30 to 50% off.
I have gone into this before but no problem saying it again. Dont waste your money on all wood cabinets. Buying cabinets with PB construction saves you 25%. Remember, PB cabinets still have all solid wood face frame, doors and drawer faces. Who sees the insides anyway? Save your money and with the savngs purchase some great options like trims and large crown and pull out trays.
The faces of a quality cabinet stick past the sides a quarter inch. We call this the ear. You bought the PB boxes but want it to look like real wood so you buy base panel skins. These are real wood at 3/16th thick and you tuck this panel right behind the ear and glue it. These panels are precut to size already. Same goes for any end exposed side. Just cover it with the wood skin.
You mentioned engineered wood. No cabinet companies I know of use engineered wood in box construction. They all use real 5 ply plywood. Chinese made junk plywood cabinets is engineered 7 ply plywood pressed together with formaldehyde infested poisonous glues. Something you do not want around your family.
I dont know where you are in Florida but in the Tampa area there are 3 signature dealers who I believe sell 50% off every day to everyone. I think I can name these for you here. Gale Interior Solutions in Tampa, Gulf Tile Dist of Florida in Tampa, and One Stop Kitchen and Bath in St Petersburg. If they are too far from you let me know.
Thanks for your insight, although I'll be quite surprised to get a better deal than HD, $7k for 17 KM cabinets in cherry wood, shaker style. I'm in no rush though and love to learn. Can you name any dealers on the east coast? My zip is 33071.
One more thing, you called engineered wood 'crap' but advocate purchasing PB box cabinets. However, myself and wikipedia both consider particle board to be engineered wood, which is not good near moisture unless treated somehow. What are your thoughts on this? Most mid-grade cabinets have an 'engineered wood' floor.
Thanks for your insight, although I'll be quite surprised to get a better deal than HD, $7k for 17 KM cabinets in cherry wood, shaker style. I'm in no rush though and love to learn. Can you name any dealers on the east coast? My zip is 33071.
One more thing, you called engineered wood 'crap' but advocate purchasing PB box cabinets. However, myself and wikipedia both consider particle board to be engineered wood, which is not good near moisture unless treated somehow. What are your thoughts on this? Most mid-grade cabinets have an 'engineered wood' floor.
I didn't say engineered wood is crap. All Chinese made items are crap. Engineered wood is from all the same raw materials that are used to make solid dimentional lumber but made with their scraps. These scraps are in large solid layers or as small as flakes.
Particle board technicily is engineered wood by the meer fact that it is man made. But few of us call it that. PB is made from saw dust scrap and pressed with a glue resin binder. Particle board will out last and out perform layered wood 1000 fold. PB remains stable more then 100 years. Any plywood and any engineered plywood will and does warp.
You are correct that particle board does not hold up when it gets wet. May I say neither does plywood. Plywood does take more of a wet beating before it fails though.
By the way, I believe engineered wood flooring is the only way to go. That fake junk Pergo is pure trash.
My favorite thing is when people walk into my showroom demanding I only show them real wood cabinets also have a scrap piece of flooring in their hand they brought to match up with cabinet colors. The piece of flooring is cheap plastic and fake wood. So in most peoples eyes particle board cabinets are no good but particle board flooring is. In my last 30 years selling cabinets I still can not explain that one away.
I will direct you by your zip to a source later. It ain't hard to be Home Depots price. They come in my store with HD plans and price and I just cut it right in half. $7000 does sound good for 17 boxes. Something ain't right. Sometimes HD and Lowes do not tell people about the accys. That can easily add $2000 to the price. It could be a trick.
Desertsun41 ... I've been "investigating" cabinet companies for the last 9 months and still am no further than when I started. I've looked at Omega Dynasty, Cabico, Ultracraft, and a whole host of others. Do I need to buy locally or can I buy from out of state from someone (and how do I find that someone) who garners lower margins and can arrange for a drop ship? Are there other ways of getting nice cabinets ((I'm not looking for custom), molding, trim, etc. without paying huge mark-ups? Finally, which cabinets are the best for the money (i.e. is there a Toyota of kitchen cabinets ... not Lexus but Toyota)?
Desertsun41 ... I've been "investigating" cabinet companies for the last 9 months and still am no further than when I started. I've looked at Omega Dynasty, Cabico, Ultracraft, and a whole host of others. Do I need to buy locally or can I buy from out of state from someone (and how do I find that someone) who garners lower margins and can arrange for a drop ship? Are there other ways of getting nice cabinets ((I'm not looking for custom), molding, trim, etc. without paying huge mark-ups? Finally, which cabinets are the best for the money (i.e. is there a Toyota of kitchen cabinets ... not Lexus but Toyota)?
Well Omega and Dynasty, same company is about the 2nd most expensive cabinets money can buy next to Poggenpohl which are out of most everyones reach. Dynasty is a lower priced version of Omega. I once was hired to put in 5 step crown molding for a total of 16" in height in a kitchen that these so called quality installers were putting in Omega boxes. I guess they were not as good as they thought they were cause they could not do that crown. I did it and I seen the order sheet. One 10' stick of that crown cost just under $800 and there were about 9 pieces of it which was only part of that puzzle.
I never heard of Cabico...hmmmmm. I rarely get stumped. Ultracraft is a low end inexpensive no frills box. Nothing wrong with it at all but special items are not available and they have limited colors and styles which keeps costs down.
Personally I love Merillat in the classic lines but the essentials line is pretty basic and not real nice. The Merillat masterpiece is very expensive and really nothing more then a Kraftmaid. Masco owns many cabinet brands. Kraftmaid makes the masterpiece and just stamps it in the Merillat name. Just like Kenmore makes appliances for Sears and Sears stamps their name on it.
I have now taken on Debut Cabinets. It's a pretty good box. With the invasion of the Chinese cancer causing formaldehyde infested cabinets always trying to compete I have been looking at lower cost knock downs like the junk Chinese boxes, the IKEA junk and the Home Depot brand Mills Pride. All knock downs meaning you assemble them. What I have found is something I really like. They are Covered Bridge cabintes. These are 100% American made and just as inexpensive as the junk imports. They are out of PA. Im looking into putting them in my showroom. They too have some limited options and fancy things but not bad.
Buying cabinet on line could be chancy but you can save a lot of money if you know exactly what you need. By buying on line you can save the sales tax which will cover the shipping. If some one makes a mistake then you are in some trouble. The idea is to get some one who knows what they are doing and have them measure and make a cabinet box list and trim list. If it is a major manufacturer then you still will have the warrenty.
As for your other question, those skin panels are not upgrades at all. They cost around $40 each but by buying a particle board box as oppposed to an all plywood box you saved perhaps $200 or more per box. I always tell people not to waste their money on all wood box construction. Buy the engineered wood or particle board boxes and skin all the exposed ends with the real wood skins. Your face frame extendes a quarter inch past the sides, we call this the ear. The wood skins will tuck right behind this ear. Glue and pin nail.
Now with all the savings by not buying all wood boxes you can upgrade where it counts. Upgrade the drawers (Kraftmaid offers standard upgraded drawers at no extra cost) upgrade the drawer guides, add soft closers, add pull out trays to all the bases rather then those completely useless half depth shelf. Add nice crown molding with inserts. fill your pantry with pull out trays, add undercabinet molding and lighting. Maybe some glass door panels. Upgrade to cherry or maple rather then oak. The list goes on. And you can do all this because you bought particle board with melamine finish rather then buying all wood boxes. Remember, even if the box construction is particle board, the face frames and doors ARE ALWAYS real solid wood.
And here is my argument about all wood VS particle board. I have 3 decades of experience doing this. First off you all remember when auto makers started using more and more plastic rather then steal? We all called them cheap crap. Now plastic is very accepted in cars right? Same with particle board.
Now go into Home Depot or Lowes and walk into the plywood isle. Look at the stacks of plywood. What do you see? All the top sheets are shapped like a bannana right? They are all warped. Now look at the stacks of particle board. Flat as flat can be. And they will remain stable like that for more then 100 years, unlike plywood. Besides...who will see the cabinet boxes once the countertop is on? Instead spend the extra money on what people see. The door style and the finish and the trim. Go with raised panel doors rather then flat panel. You will get payback if you ever wish to sell using the more quality raised panels.
Hope that helps. If you have any more questions then ask away......
Now here are my opinions on this matter. In some areas I will agree that particle board may be a better choice, in areas where there is not a structure to help keep things flat, but not necessarily in an area where there is need for structural integrity. My 20+ years experience as a woodworking instructor verifies that plywood is superior in areas such as holding power of mechanical fasteners. That being said, I have no problem with the particle board boxes on a quality cabinet. We used them in our own Kraftmaid kitchen where they didn't show. I do disagree on the skins being a savings. I verified this information today at the center where I have worked for the last 32 years, 20 as a kitchen designer. Here is what I found using a 36" base cabinet in oak, (veneered) raised panel door. This is one of the more popular styles in our area of the country and a very common size. These prices are our normal retail price for anyone who just comes in "off the street".
Standard particle board box with a wood skin to cover one exposed end - $351.85. Don't forget to pay the installer for the extra time involved in attaching the skin.
That same cabinet with the plywood end upgrade, no skin - $332.39.
Upgrade the cabinet to All Plywood construction (no skin) and the price goes to $347.50.
The price differences will vary some depending on the cabinet size as the upgrades are a percentage of the base cabinet price and the skin price remains constant, but I don't see a big savings anywhere for the upgraded accessories and moldings.
Some other information I found while researching for a recent client who needed to go "green" in her house. Kraftmaid All Plywood construction has the lowest VOC rating of all of their lines and meets the environmental requirements for "green" construction. So if you are looking for environmental friendliness, plywood is generally better than particle board. And quality manufacturers use a good quality cabinet grade plywood.
One other thing, Kenmore does not manufacture appliances. Other manufacturers manufacture the appliances and put the Kenmore name on them for Sears. My SIL works at the Whirlpool plant that makes microwaves and clothes dryers with the Kenmore name on them for Sears.
Now here are my opinions on this matter. In some areas I will agree that particle board may be a better choice, in areas where there is not a structure to help keep things flat, but not necessarily in an area where there is need for structural integrity. My 20+ years experience as a woodworking instructor verifies that plywood is superior in areas such as holding power of mechanical fasteners. That being said, I have no problem with the particle board boxes on a quality cabinet. We used them in our own Kraftmaid kitchen where they didn't show. I do disagree on the skins being a savings. I verified this information today at the center where I have worked for the last 32 years, 20 as a kitchen designer. Here is what I found using a 36" base cabinet in oak, (veneered) raised panel door. This is one of the more popular styles in our area of the country and a very common size. These prices are our normal retail price for anyone who just comes in "off the street".
Standard particle board box with a wood skin to cover one exposed end - $351.85. Don't forget to pay the installer for the extra time involved in attaching the skin.
That same cabinet with the plywood end upgrade, no skin - $332.39.
Upgrade the cabinet to All Plywood construction (no skin) and the price goes to $347.50.
The price differences will vary some depending on the cabinet size as the upgrades are a percentage of the base cabinet price and the skin price remains constant, but I don't see a big savings anywhere for the upgraded accessories and moldings.
Some other information I found while researching for a recent client who needed to go "green" in her house. Kraftmaid All Plywood construction has the lowest VOC rating of all of their lines and meets the environmental requirements for "green" construction. So if you are looking for environmental friendliness, plywood is generally better than particle board. And quality manufacturers use a good quality cabinet grade plywood.
One other thing, Kenmore does not manufacture appliances. Other manufacturers manufacture the appliances and put the Kenmore name on them for Sears. My SIL works at the Whirlpool plant that makes microwaves and clothes dryers with the Kenmore name on them for Sears.
That dont make sense. You said the particle board box cost more then the plywood box. Did I read you right?
I'm not at the office so dont have my price book with me but lets use your number for the PB box. $351 for a B36. First off that is not a retail price for a Kraftmaid. If I bought that box with PB construction it cost me $351 but if I upgraded to an all wood box it would cost about $550.
If I bought a BEP which is a side skin all by itself it would be about $95 list. No one pays list price do they? Oh yea I guess those who go to the big box stores do. so for $351 plus about $45 for the wood skin you are at about $400 which is still $150 cheaper then the all wood box. Everyone's goal is to save money.
You are right indeed that plywood is superior in areas such as holding power of mechanical fasteners like cam locks, dowels, bisquits, pocket screws and so on. But using PB and and hot melt glueing all panels into datos, this will hold up to any plywood box.
I have a different thought process then the big retail box stores. They want to make a sale at the highest possible price and to hell with the customer and what their design looks like. I make damn sure the design is perfect and my goal is to do their kitchen for the lowest price. If some one comes in with an unlimited budget then great, anything goes. But those customers are long long gone. Today even with expensive kitchens people are picking apart every place they can to save a few dollars here and there.
rrtec I will do the same experiment as you Monday. I will use wholesale prices which we give to everyone. I dont know how those big box stores get any sleep at night charging full list price, especially in an economic depression like we have. I will use Merillat which is basicly the same box as Kraftmaid, all Masco owned companies. You gave me a good idea too but I wont tell.......
Your comments very helpful. I am at the last stage of my design and comparing Ultracraft with Cabico. [URL="http://www.cabico.com/"]www.cabico.com[/URL]. So difficult to find any real quality v. value comparisons on cabinet manufacturers, but my sense is that Cabico is a higher end semi-custom house. I do want some special features that Ultracraft may not be able to flex to provide, but if the price differential for the same quality is okay, then it may not be worth paying the extra for Cabico. Have you since heard anything about Cabico and could you compare now?
Your comments very helpful. I am at the last stage of my design and comparing Ultracraft with Cabico. www.cabico.com. So difficult to find any real quality v. value comparisons on cabinet manufacturers, but my sense is that Cabico is a higher end semi-custom house. I do want some special features that Ultracraft may not be able to flex to provide, but if the price differential for the same quality is okay, then it may not be worth paying the extra for Cabico. Have you since heard anything about Cabico and could you compare now?
I never even heard of Cabico. The web site says north America. Without reading further it may be a mostly Canadian company though they work in the very northern USA. The pics appear to be mostly Euro design which I would not touch. It's just ugly so I refuse to carry them or sell them. Europe thinks our face framed cabinets are ugly but I am right and they are wrong. I always said if America started liking and prefering frameless cabinets I would walk away from 3 decades of doing what I love to do.
Ultracraft is not really quality. It's a really low end decent cabinet. You find them used by builders in condos and townhomes which traditionally are real junky construction anyway and just plain cheap housing. In other words, human filing cabinets.
Are you looking for Omega quality with an IKEA price? Not even I can pull that trick off.
I dont know where you are but the highest quality cabinet I know of with the lowest price is Covered Bridge Cabinets. They are RTA and made in the USA.
Whatever the case if this is your 2 choices I like Ultracraft better.
Desertsun, Have you ever dealt with a cabinet company called Ward Cabinets? They are semicustom line. I liked alot of what I saw but went w/ Brookhaven but I am thinking I paid for the Brookhaven name and Ward seemed to have good quality just not name recognition. What do you think?
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