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Old 07-10-2011, 12:51 AM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 89,161,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar42 View Post
It's the only publication I've ever seen actually test this claim. Everyone else just blindly accepts what the manufacturer says. And you conveniently left out this quote:

"but neither the BMW nor the Saab suffered any drivability problems while burning regular unleaded fuel."
I "conveniently" left it out because it's not relevant to the post I was referencing before you moved the goalposts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar42 View Post
Yes, if you drive a turbocharged, supercharged or high compression engine premium fuel does make a difference. But even if you run regular fuel the car will drive fine and you won't damage anything.
"Drive fine" is subjective. If you're trundling down the road at a leisurely pace, yes it will. If you call up some thunder with your right foot, your car may not respond as well. And while it may "drive fine," what you likely give up for your skinflintery is decreased fuel economy which may end up defeating the purpose. And you can really only count on it "driving fine" if your car was built in the OBDII era. If your car was built before then, it's anyone's guess what might happen to it if you conistently run it on a lower fuel grade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar42 View Post
As far why we might question the infallible engineers at the auto companies. Well Toyota recommends regular fuel in a new Camry V6 . In the Lexus ES350, which has the same engine, compression ratio, and HP rating, Lexus recommends premium fuel (source.) Kind of hard to see how the Lexus badge could affect the octane requirement. I think it's the marketing people at Lexus overruling the engineers in this case...
There are in fact differences in the Lexus vs. Toyota HP and torque ratings, depending on the model year.

Last edited by Drover; 07-10-2011 at 01:05 AM..
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Old 07-10-2011, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
1,626 posts, read 3,271,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
There are in fact differences in the Lexus vs. Toyota HP and torque ratings, depending on the model year.
Not the 2011 models of each car, the power rating and compression ratio are identical. You can't say the Lexus engineers know what they are doing while the Toyota engineers do not. That would be having it both ways.

Kind of kills the "damage" argument too since Toyota would not recommend a fuel grade that could damage their engines during the warranty period.
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar42 View Post
Not the 2011 models of each car, the power rating and compression ratio are identical. You can't say the Lexus engineers know what they are doing while the Toyota engineers do not. That would be having it both ways.

Kind of kills the "damage" argument too since Toyota would not recommend a fuel grade that could damage their engines during the warranty period.
The power ratings and compression ratios are the same. The torque ratings are not. Guess which one has a higher torque rating and recommends higher octane fuel? (Hint: the answer is the same.)
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:49 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
The power ratings and compression ratios are the same. The torque ratings are not. Guess which one has a higher torque rating and recommends higher octane fuel? (Hint: the answer is the same.)
Wrong, they are literally identical. So which engineers are correct Lexus or Toyota?

ES | Detailed Specifications

Toyota Camry Performance & Specs
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Old 07-10-2011, 07:06 PM
 
48,516 posts, read 83,880,155 times
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You could always pout Plus insead of premium or regualr . Its the performance and the fact that compresion is gear to more octane and redualr is proably the minimum recommended.Octane is all about how fast in burns and normally higher comparession means need for higher ( slower burning) octane or you will get valve flooding. What the computer will do is retard timing to prevent this. If you notiuce knock it will be most when load is suddenly placed on enginel iike climbing.
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Old 07-10-2011, 07:16 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 89,161,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar42 View Post
Wrong, they are literally identical. So which engineers are correct Lexus or Toyota?

ES | Detailed Specifications

Toyota Camry Performance & Specs
And do you know what happened when Lexus downrated the power and torque rating for the 2011 model year?



Wait for it.....





















Wait for it....




























They downrated the fuel grade requirement too!

2011 Lexus ES 350 Details | The Lexus Enthusiast


kthxbye!
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Old 07-10-2011, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
And do you know what happened when Lexus downrated the power and torque rating for the 2011 model year?
I get an error when I try to pull up 2011 ES350 owner's manual to confirm but it conflicts with what Lexus lists in their knowledge center:

"Lexus recommends Premium Unleaded Fuel for all 2008 and newer model year vehicles. For older models, please consult your Owner's Manual for recommended fuel requirements."

Lexus - Knowledge Center - Search Results
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Old 07-10-2011, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 89,161,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar42 View Post
I get an error when I try to pull up 2011 ES350 owner's manual to confirm but it conflicts with what Lexus lists in their knowledge center:

"Lexus recommends Premium Unleaded Fuel for all 2008 and newer model year vehicles. For older models, please consult your Owner's Manual for recommended fuel requirements."

Lexus - Knowledge Center - Search Results
Straight from the corporate press room:

Lexus ES 350 Continues to Symbolize Luxury and Style
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Old 07-10-2011, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
1,626 posts, read 3,271,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Straight from the corporate press room:

Lexus ES 350 Continues to Symbolize Luxury and Style
Fair enough, I will concede that you are correct on the octane recommendation.

But if the ES350 has the same engine from 2010 to 2011 (specs are identical other than power) doesn't that support the idea that it's perfectly safe to run 87 octane fuel in an engine [originally] designed to run on premium? I don't disagree that it makes a small difference in power as confirmed by the Car and Driver dyno test.

I have a 2011 Nissan Murano that is has the same engine as the 2010 model but is rated at 5HP less. The difference is Nissan recommends 87 octane in the 2011 model and 91 octane in the 2010 model. No other differences in the engines. So forgive me for being skeptical about claims of damage when running lower than "recommended" fuel octane.
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Old 07-10-2011, 08:20 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,690 posts, read 89,161,233 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar42 View Post
Fair enough, I will concede that you are correct on the octane recommendation.

But if the ES350 has the same engine from 2010 to 2011 (specs are identical other than power) doesn't that support the idea that it's perfectly safe to run 87 octane fuel in an engine [originally] designed to run on premium? I don't disagree that it makes a small difference in power as confirmed by the Car and Driver dyno test.

I have a 2011 Nissan Murano that is has the same engine as the 2010 model but is rated at 5HP less. The difference is Nissan recommends 87 octane in the 2011 model and 91 octane in the 2010 model. No other differences in the engines. So forgive me for being skeptical about claims of damage when running lower than "recommended" fuel octane.
Once again, I don't think anyone in this thread is arguing that you're going to blow up your engine by running 87 octane when the manufacturer recommends premium. But in order for the engine to compensate for the downrated fuel, it has to detect knock. It won't keep knocking, but it will have already done so. But the periodic testing for fuel grade means the engine will knock now and again if you consistently run a lower grade fuel. That may shorten engine life in the long term, but probably not by a significant margin -- maybe a couple thousand miles if that.

But you'll note that this was not the primary concern for those suggesting the OP stick with premium, but rather the concern was degredation of performance and fuel economy. The latter in particular defeats the purpose of using a lower fuel grade in a car for which premium is recommended.
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