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Do you think a mechanic cares about your car after it leaves the shop? all they know is you paid them and if something else breaks it aint our fault you signed the papers.
I know dealers can be rip offs...I hate to say it but a lot mechanics see the lesser mechanically inclined as prey and do whatever they want, your pretty much at their mercy.
A Honda authorized/specialty mechanic shop would be better, atleast they will have the right knowledge and things that are up to spec. When your exposed to one manufacturer of cars, you learn all the knicks and knacks of that certain brand. When your a dealer you have access to secret info that will never ever leave the dealer.
Any fluid you find will either say "designed to meet manufacturers specific requirements or exceed them" this is not the same as "this is the exact same fluid and is OEM"
Name Brand Dealers love this kind of thinking.
HD fanatics will INSIST that you MUST take your Harley to a Harley Dealer for an oil change, because the HD Motor Oil is superior to anything on the market.
What they don't know is that Sunoco makes the oil for Harley Davidson, then HD simply triples the price and throws it in your bike.
I'm the one getting a chuckle from the posters today who think that they can deal with this transmission issue in the generic, aftermarket sense that is applicable to so many vehicles; ie, you can use off the shelf quality replacement fluids for a lot of vehicles and provide OE spec performance and reliability for many cars and trucks. It is certainly correct that many vehicles are well serviced by using aftermarket (ie, not dealer OE supplied product) fluids for all of their applications.
But, unfortunately, the Honda you've got, OP, is an exception to this general situation. It is a well documented problem with this series car; pro's who use in-the trade sources such as IATN, ask-a-tech, or intellifix ... or similar forums to discuss problems and exchange information about vehicle service issues have frequently commented about their real world in the field experiences with this series of car. As well, public forums such as owner's club sites have well documented many owner experiences with this problem.
If you value you car's transmission, do NOT use anything in this but the OE supplied Honda dealership trans fluid.
How do I know specifically this is a critical issue, somewhat unique to this series of the Honda automatic transmissions?
Because I call upon numerous shops in a 4-state region in my sales/consulting work, and I have seen the results of using anything but the OE spec fluid at many shops. It's been an expensive learning curve for some of those shops when they used an aftermarket "supposed to be the correct stuff, met the Honda spec" fluid ... and it didn't, even though it was from a trusted national name brand supplier of such products. Some of the shops got to redo their work as a customer warranty/accomodation because they trusted the aftermarket supplier to give them a proper fluid, and it didn't work properly for the end customer ... who brought the vehicle back to the shop for corrective action. Changing the trans fluid over to the dealer supplied OE product corrected the shifting/vibration problems that presented.
Fact is, last week I called upon a shop in Colorado that had exactly this problem present with a 60,000 mile service on a car similar to yours and the shop owner was moaning about the fact that his flat-rate package deal to service these cars did not allow him a reasonable margin to do the work because he'd calculated the project on aftermarket trans fluid ... from a major supplier, which asserted the product met Honda spec. It didn't, apparently, because the customer came back in a few days with shifting problems in the car. I happened to be on-site when the car came back and mentioned this issue to the shop owner; he dropped the fluid and replaced it with Honda dealer fluid. The car shifted normally after that and he's now got a happy customer. But the shop will have to make an exception on their flat rate package promotional deal for these cars to accomdate the increased cost of doing the work on them in the future ... to a price point where the shop owner is concerned he won't be able to be competitive with the shops that don't know the problem and use the aftermarket fluid.
You do not, of course, need to take the car to a franchised dealer to do this work. But it is critical to a good outcome that you use the Honda OE trans fluid in this car, which any shop can buy for your needs. Or you can do the drain/refill procedure yourself if you've got the place to get the car up off the ground, it's not very hard to do.
^ Tell me who makes Honda's DW-1 fluid. Do you know? Hint: It isn't Honda.
The bottom line is that Honda went through a long period of time when they installed inferior automatic transmissions in their cars - and they knew it. They were arrogant enough to think that their reputation could cover over poor engineering. The transmissions were usually okay behind a 4-cylinder, but couldn't handle the power of the V6.
Like Chrysler, Honda decided that rather than spend the money to improve their transmissions, they'd just do what they could to eke a few more miles out of them. That included some special additives to the tranny fluid, and a triplicate flushing procedure.
The problem is not aftermarket fluid. The problem is the WRONG aftermarket fluid. JiffyLubeEsque joints are notorious for doing that.
Of course, Honda doesn't manufacture their fluid ... but they do specify what goes into it as a proprietary formulation from their supplier to accomplish their performance specs.
The only spec they release to the aftermarket fluid manufacturers are their fluid performance specs, which act as test parameters for the fluid but they don't tell the manufacturer what components must go into the fluid to accomplish the result. The additive pack in the aftermarket is most likely quite different than what is in the Honda branded product.
IIRC, the OP's Honda used their ATF-Z1 spec fluid, not the latest DW-1 fluid. I'd have to call a dealer to get the clarification on that ... I have seen reports that a partial change to DW-1 can cause hard shifting in the older transmissions.
ApolloAmerican makes their transmission fluid. And it's good fluid. But there are aftermarket fluids that are just as good, and even better. Far better.
There are two keys:
1. Get the correct aftermarket fluid - or just go OEM if desired.
2. Change the fluid properly. Unfortunately, Honda decided to NOT use a filter in these transmissions (another arrogant mistake), so a triplicate procedure is necessary for a good fluid change.
"When your a dealer you have access to secret info that will never ever leave the dealer."
Thanks, I need a laugh today.
You laugh but its 100% truth, Why would anyone bring their car to a dealer if every corner garage had the same information? The fact is every garage out there that isnt a dealer, does NOT have the info that the dealer will have.
This is why the dealer always trumps everything else. If you were a car manufacturer would you want all your trade info out in the open? I think not, you know why? because it wouldnt be secret anymore and none would bother going to an authorized mechanic.
The garage down the street has all the diagnostic equipment, but they dont get every detail that the right tool will get.
For example: you bring your car to get the codes checked at a random garage, these codes are general codes and may not be specific, which is why they all play the guessing game with you and you end up going back to them...... tHey also use a handheld code reader that cost maybe $100.
You bring your car to the dealer to get codes checked: They know EXACTLY where the problem is and how to fix it. their code reader machine costs around $10,000 and can only read one manufacturer of cars. They can even make changes to the way the ECU makes calculations and tune certain things right from the code reader.
You laugh but its 100% truth, Why would anyone bring their car to a dealer if every corner garage had the same information? The fact is every garage out there that isnt a dealer, does NOT have the info that the dealer will have.
This is why the dealer always trumps everything else. If you were a car manufacturer would you want all your trade info out in the open? I think not, you know why? because it wouldnt be secret anymore and none would bother going to an authorized mechanic.
The garage down the street has all the diagnostic equipment, but they dont get every detail that the right tool will get.
For example: you bring your car to get the codes checked at a random garage, these codes are general codes and may not be specific, which is why they all play the guessing game with you and you end up going back to them...... tHey also use a handheld code reader that cost maybe $100.
You bring your car to the dealer to get codes checked: They know EXACTLY where the problem is and how to fix it. their code reader machine costs around $10,000 and can only read one manufacturer of cars. They can even make changes to the way the ECU makes calculations and tune certain things right from the code reader.
You dont get that at the regular garage
Actually, many of the codes are spec'd to a common standard re engine/emissions performance issues and the code that even a cheap scanner will pull up is the same one that the dealership scanner pulls up.
Where the dealership has the advantage is that there may be additional proprietary codes which aren't mandated to be available to the general public database which can assist them in a lot of non-mandated areas, such as window operation, memory seats, climate control, etc.
In any event, many codes still require a diagnostic tree to troubleshoot the exact causation of the problem that set the code. The dealer tech does not necessarily have any advantage over a well trained/experienced independent tech in many of these typical problem areas, and the aftermarket information database of scanned waveforms and troubleshooting experience is growing everyday.
As well, you apparently haven't priced professional quality scanners anytime recently ... while the OTC scanners (which I consider to be the basic level for pro work) are in the $4,000 to 6,000 price range, along with Bosch scanners and several other brands ... when you start looking at a top of the line Snap-On pro scanner, it's not uncommon to see shops spending $12,000 with all the modules included. And that's just the initial acquisition cost; they have to update the modules from time to time and they are costly.
I haven't called on any pro shops in the last few years that are relying upon the $100 home hobbyist level of scan tool for their professional diagnostics .....
Nor, it would appear, are you aware that various manufacturers have released the technology and information to the aftermarket that allows them to scan and reflash, or even program ECU's for various functions to the same level as the dealership does. It's not inexpensive to have this in an aftermarket shop, but a fair number of shops have purchased this technology to expand the range of services that they provide to their clients instead of having to send the prospective work down the road.
FWIW, I spent way too many years of my shop time actually diagnosing and durably repairing cars that the dealerships could not fix except on a short-term basis ... because they went for the quick unit parts replacement many times instead of locating the underlying fault(s) that were the failure causation. But my bag of tricks included using dual-trace computer grade o'scopes long before the scan tools started using DSO's to capture waveforms. There were several well known to the trade trainers who were teaching these diagnostic tactics (and advertising their niche in the automotive trade journals) long before the dealer networks ever had to learn how to be pro level electronics diagnosticians. To this day, I see a lot of dealership misdiagnoses/guesses, repeat repairs for a given problem, etc. The dealerships by no means have an exclusive on diagnostic skills .....
The only reason to go to a dealer is for FREE warranty work.
Other wise a fool and his money.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewHavensFinest
You laugh but its 100% truth, Why would anyone bring their car to a dealer if every corner garage had the same information? The fact is every garage out there that isnt a dealer, does NOT have the info that the dealer will have.
This job is so easy to do that anyone that owns a 1/2 drive ratchet can change the trans fluid themselves. My mother has a 98 Accord 3.0 V6 EX and the transmission failed on it around 130,000 miles. Honda V6's during these years all had trans problems. It's all because the idiots at Honda mated the 4 banger trans into the 6 without any sort if upgrades inside to handle the extra power.
The major symptoms are slippage, a very long first to second harsh shift patterns, and really rough delayed downshifts.
The biggest issues was that the fluid would overheat or wouldn't flow right because the lines were too small, and start overheating the second gear. It didn't matter how you drove the car either, the problem was inside the hydraulic lines. When the mechanic rebuilt the transmission in my mothers Accord, he told me that he had to actually physically make the lines bigger by opening them up more to handle and carry more fluid faster to each gear or he just replaced some original lines with custom bigger ones so the fluid would cool better and wont clog up inside.
I actually helped my mothers Honda's trans go a little further before it finally crapped out by using 2 quarts of Redline Full Syn ATF fluid, with 1 quart of Honda ATF. The shifts got much much smoother, and it didn't slip much until the last week of it's death. I did this when she first bought the car, and changed the fluid twice ( 3 quarts per drain) in the 6 months after she purchased the car used, and I remember seeing the old fluid coming out when I first changed it, and it looked like chocolate! Talk about burnt up ATF! It was bad, and I knew the damage had already been done to it, and it was only time until the transmission completely failed, but I am glad I did what I did, because it lasted longer than I expected.
it's a very simple job to do, don't go out there and spend over $100 on something so easy, it's a rip off! At the most you''ll spend is like $15-$20 on 3 quarts of fluid depending on if you got Honda stuff or some other brand. Personally there's nothing wrong going with a full syn ATF fluid like Redline or Royal Purple when they are spec'ed for Honda's. As you long as you have have 2 or 3 quarts of Honda ATF in there, your car should be fine and possibly shift even better than before if you just used straight Honda fluid.
The transmission bolt should be right underneath the trans to your right hand side, a 1/2 drive is all you need to get it loose depending on how tight it is, a breaker bar might help in this case. It will drain 3 quarts of fluid, and the refill bolt is towards the rear of the engine right beneath the distributor cap. I forgot what size it is, but the bolt is pretty big, bigger than a 3/4 I believe. The total amount of trans fluid is 6-7 quarts, so it would be best to buy some cheap Dexron ATF, drain the old fluid, refill it with Dexron, run it for a couple of days, drain and refill again with cheap Dex, run for day or so, drain again, but this time put in some good stuff. You should be good to go after that.
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