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Note: All statements in red are from kcam213, from an earlier post:
Well, I don't see this 'snobbery' at all. I own both (well, the newer one is 10 years old, and took me quite a while to give it some decent character, but definitely not a McMansion). The older one is almost 140 years old, and is now on the historic register. The others I have don't count here.
Quote:"I think it does have to do a lot with money since I read over and over about how older "stately" mansions built by the wealthy was desirable but a smaller and/or less expensive home that doesn't have the old world charm is not."
This is a thread about McMansions.... to make an apples-to-apples assessment, you need to look at similar-size houses. Old/new does not matter. Taste, however is purely personal.
Quote:" I guess a McMansion is a "fake" home??? No, it is a real home."
It often is (and I do not like to generalize, so it is not always the case), an attempt to present an image. Size is not everything. How much particle board is in your place, or OSB, or PEX or vinyl siding?
Quote:"Wrong, many of my coworkers recently bought new homes. Some homes were 10 years old, others were new builds. The 10 year homes were within 10 thousand dollars as the new builds. If the home's price deviated that much from new build then it was a foreclosure and had to have some extensive cosmetic and sometimes structural renovations.
I would be interested in seeing the sample size of the number of your coworkers vs. the number of houses on the market... If significant, it would provide at least some relevance of your statement.
My 1876 house cost 32% of my newer house, is in absolutely flawless condition, though it is only half the size (6000 ft^2).
Quote:" I guess you just don't get it. How about a built in Kenmore. The house I grew up we could not have a built in dishwasher because we could not spare the cupboards. Not a Miele, not an LG, not a Whirlpool. Why are you focusing brands names?
I am responding to your statement that ""Maybe people just want features that are more commonly and lessexpensively found in a McMansion."
I don't care what appliances you put in, the specific appliances all still cost the same regardless where you put them. Brand name does not matter (in terms of where they end up).
Maybe you didn't have a dishwasher where you grew up. Irrelevant to this conversation. My inlaws grew up on a farm and had to raise their own food. Does that matter either?
Quote:"The house I grew up in and in fact EVERY house in our neighborhood had Detached garages. Fact."
Tell me what fraction of all the houses in the U.S. that every house in your neighborhood represents? (You may need a scientific notation calculator to get the precision). I think I can do the math for you. There are approximately 91,241,000 single-family houses in the US. So if there are 100 houses in your neighborhood, your observation constitutes less than 0.0001% of the total sample size. Geez, I would make conclusions based on that.
Quote:"Vinyl windows are an improvement to those wood framed pane glass that was inefficient in winter allowing so much cold air in due to wood shrinkage that companies make a nice profit selling those plastic sheets to insulate windows... or wood that swells in the summer to the point that you can't open the window in the heat trapping you in sweltering heat."
I will take that reply as stating "I never had Marvin, Andersen or Pella windows", which all can come as wood, with a cladding on the outside (my favorite, aluminum).
Quote:"You have never been in a house where the front door opens to a living room, which is adjacent to a dining room, and the kitchen is adjacent to the dining room and the entrance to the kitchen is a standard size door way without the door. "
Wow, such assumptions. I rented one of those in college.
Quote:"I have seen older homes that had these type of amenities you are speaking of. The homes cost as much as a new build..."
Again, sample size, please. Gross generalizations really detract from your credibility. My only statement is that you can find beautiful houses, that have all the amenities you are requesting, at a price that is less than a McMansion (i.e. having quality construction, and is not in a 40 year-old neighborhood on a postage stamp lot).
And it has been my experience when looking for a home in my price range (Less than $200,000) you could choose from for a bungalow built in the 60s or 70s and in need of new furnace or roof, pr a small ranch with a detached garage and an overgrown small yard. Areas included Livonia, MI, Westland, MI, Redford, MI, Dearborn/ Dearborn Heights, MI.
If you wanted a larger home with space and old world charm such as cathedral ceilings, carved wood wall coverings, mahogany staircases, stone or brick, pantries etc... for less than $200,000 you could find in the historical districts of detroit like Boston Edison, but then the school system was crummy and the surrounding ares are crumbling.
Go to Canton, MI, Northville, MI, and the like, and you will find McMansion or I guess more like mini McMansions. And the neighborhoods are neat, well kept, the schools are good. Not all "McMansions" are distasteful monstrosities. You talk about me using generalizations but I read generalizations about McMansions or the taste of people who like them. How presumptuous of you.
I do have particle board in my new build. I had it in my 1925 year old home as well. You do know that people built tasteless and shoddy homes back then as well. Except I know my home doesn't have lead paint, asbestos, or lead lined pipes.
The particle board is the molding. Like another poster stated, these things can and will be replaced with materials that are of my choosing at a very reasonable cost. What I could not change without using more money than I have or care to spend would be to tastefully add space to a 1200 sq ft ranch to make it as spacious as the home I have now.
I got the basic layout of the home I want already. The sliding glass patio door that I do not particularly like.. will be replaced by French doors. Like wise, the molding and interior doors will be replaced with cherry wood to match the mantle and cupboards.
My posts are not meant to compare apples and oranges. It is to give explanation why some people opt for new build McMansion... they are not trying to put on airs, they are not trying to fake someone like a fake Rolex watch. Maybe they are trying to get the most bang for the buck that will suffice in the present and offer a realistic opportunity to improve/refine in the future.
A butler's pantry in an older home would not have been used in the same way as a pantry of today. The china, silver, utensils, fine linens, and serving bowls were kept in a butler's pantry--things used for serving, especially in a formal setting. Furthermore, they were items that were displayed, both for ease of access and as status items. It's not the same as a pantry of today filled with blenders, food choppers, boxes of cereal, poptarts, paper towels, macaroni, and cake mix.
No, in older homes guests did not mingle in the main kitchen. Guests would have been in the parlor or living room. In fact, kitchens were private rooms/enclosed because, once upon a time, a kitchen was where the servants or slaves prepared the food. Guests never entered there. And to show a kitchen in the prep stage with dirty platters, cut food, a sloppy counter, etc. was not allowed/proper etiquette.
And how are rear staircases used for food preparation? They were used for the domestic help to enter and exit the home. In some cases, back staircases were used by servants to carry the food to the dining room (typically on the second floor). Servants were supposed to work "unseen" so the back staircase served as their way of doing their jobs efficiently and "invisibly"-- so they wouldn't be seen in the main areas nor seen by any guests.
Wow, this is a really nasty comment. You've just compared an animal to someone else's flesh and blood.
Not a chance. Winter clothes, summer clothes, fall and spring, plus 17 serious hobbies easily fill those closets.
Quote:"A butler's pantry in an older home would not have been used in the same way as a pantry of today."
Now that is a generalization. This is not an older home. We are talking about McMansions, not older homes.
My bad. A typo on my part. I guess you can call mine a 'butler's kitchen'. It is a separate room with all the kitchen appliances, and then also including what you have defined as a 'butler's pantry'. All the food is prepared there. The main kitchen is very formal (it also has all the appliances, but when entertaining they are not used). It is a very pleasant place to socialize, as there are plenty of places to sit, etc. When entertaining up to 100 people, you need every room you can get.
I think you are totally missing the point... how people used their houses in the 'olden days' has no application to this thread.
Quote:"It's not the same as a pantry of today filled with blenders, food choppers, boxes of cereal, poptarts, paper towels, macaroni, and cake mix."
Those are all in my pantry (or whatever you want to call it) as well, just stored all behind cupboards and cabinets. But it also happens to have a full kitchen in it as well.
In my 1905 house, it had a rear staircase so that the help could get from their living quarters on the third floor, down to the kitchen/back of the house without being seen. Also on the third floor was a classroom, with chalkboards and desks, so the children could be taught at home, and a ballroom. Days like that are all long gone, and now houses like that are just novelties.
Some people values their pets very highly (especially if they have no children). It was not a mean comment, just an opinion. You have no idea how my dog lives. And since my comment has nothing to do with this thread, I won't talk about it any more.
And it has been my experience when looking for a home in my price range (Less than $200,000) you could choose from for a bungalow built in the 60s or 70s and in need of new furnace or roof, pr a small ranch with a detached garage and an overgrown small yard. Areas included Livonia, MI, Westland, MI, Redford, MI, Dearborn/ Dearborn Heights, MI.
If you wanted a larger home with space and old world charm such as cathedral ceilings, carved wood wall coverings, mahogany staircases, stone or brick, pantries etc... for less than $200,000 you could find in the historical districts of detroit like Boston Edison, but then the school system was crummy and the surrounding ares are crumbling.
Go to Canton, MI, Northville, MI, and the like, and you will find McMansion or I guess more like mini McMansions. And the neighborhoods are neat, well kept, the schools are good. Not all "McMansions" are distasteful monstrosities. You talk about me using generalizations but I read generalizations about McMansions or the taste of people who like them. How presumptuous of you.
I do have particle board in my new build. I had it in my 1925 year old home as well. You do know that people built tasteless and shoddy homes back then as well. Except I know my home doesn't have lead paint, asbestos, or lead lined pipes.
The particle board is the molding. Like another poster stated, these things can and will be replaced with materials that are of my choosing at a very reasonable cost. What I could not change without using more money than I have or care to spend would be to tastefully add space to a 1200 sq ft ranch to make it as spacious as the home I have now.
I got the basic layout of the home I want already. The sliding glass patio door that I do not particularly like.. will be replaced by French doors. Like wise, the molding and interior doors will be replaced with cherry wood to match the mantle and cupboards.
My posts are not meant to compare apples and oranges. It is to give explanation why some people opt for new build McMansion... they are not trying to put on airs, they are not trying to fake someone like a fake Rolex watch. Maybe they are trying to get the most bang for the buck that will suffice in the present and offer a realistic opportunity to improve/refine in the future.
Quote:"I do have particle board in my new build. I had it in my 1925 year old home as well. You do know that people built tasteless and shoddy homes back then as well."
Particle board did not become mass-produced until WW2. So obviously someone decided to do some work on your older home quite a while after it was built.
I would wager that in your new home, the exterior sheathing is OSB.
Quote:"You talk about me using generalizations but I read generalizations about McMansions or the taste of people who like them."
I see, so you think that if other people generalize, it is perfectly ok to do it as well...
Quote:"
The particle board is the molding. Like another poster stated, these things can and will be replaced with materials that are of my choosing at a very reasonable cost. What I could not change without using more money than I have or care to spend would be to tastefully add space to a 1200 sq ft ranch to make it as spacious as the home I have now."
Now I totally agree with this method. I have done it twice. I stated in another post that it is relatively inexpensive to do all the internal upgrades yourself, but adding footage is expensive (and requires contractors).
Now that is a generalization. This is not an older home. We are talking about McMansions, not older homes.
We were comparing space.
Quote:
I guess you can call mine a 'butler's kitchen'.
I guess this is a new word invented by builders of McMansions, like "post-modern Victorian" -- one of those weird words that evokes something romanticized (like a butler's pantry) but isn't one really.
Quote:
It is a separate room with all the kitchen appliances, and then also including what you have defined as a 'butler's pantry'. All the food is prepared there. The main kitchen is very formal (it also has all the appliances, but when entertaining they are not used). It is a very pleasant place to socialize, as there are plenty of places to sit, etc.
Here again, as I mentioned earlier, the kitchen, once upon a time, was not a place for guests. And believe it or not, many of us (especially with the historic homes) still practice this -- guests remain out in the parlor, diningroom, or living room where they are not privy to the skin from chopped vegetables, baking pans with roasted juice, or the trash can.
Quote:
I think you are totally missing the point... how people used their houses in the 'olden days' has no application to this thread.
I believe it has relevance to this thread when people compare a butler's pantry to a pantry or kitchen of today, are calling them a "butler's pantry", and do not know the difference in usage.
Furthermore, people still use the space(s) in the historic homes in similar ways as they were meant for.
Quote:
In my 1905 house, it had a rear staircase so that the help could get from their living quarters on the third floor, down to the kitchen/back of the house without being seen.
Yeah, that's what I said in my previous post.
Quote:
Days like that are all long gone, and now houses like that are just novelties.
This is a very dumb statement.
So a back staircase is a novelty and not a usable passageway? I have seen McMansions built with back staircases so how is this a novelty and not something used? Since architectural features in older houses are "just novelties" let's just rip out our fireplaces, the flying buttresses, korbels, and chandeliers, root cellars, large windows, front porches, and the walls in the older homes and all live via open concept?
Last edited by South Jersey Styx; 12-08-2011 at 09:09 AM..
I guess this is a new word invented by builders of McMansions, like "post-modern Victorian" -- one of those weird words that evokes something romanticized (like a butler's pantry) but isn't one really.
Here again, as I mentioned earlier, the kitchen, once upon a time, was not a place for guests. And believe it or not, many of us (especially with the historic homes) still practice this -- guests remain out in the parlor, diningroom, or living room where they are not privy to the skin from chopped vegetables, baking pans with roasted juice, or the trash can.
I believe it has relevance to this thread when people compare a butler's pantry to a pantry or kitchen of today, are calling them a "butler's pantry", and do not know the difference in usage.
Furthermore, people still use the space(s) in the historic homes in similar ways as they were meant for.
Yeah, that's what I said in my previous post.
This is a very dumb statement.
So a back staircase is a novelty and not a usable passageway? I have seen McMansions built with back staircases so how is this a novelty and not something used? Since architectural features in older houses are "just novelties" let's just rip out our fireplaces, the flying buttresses, korbels, and chandeliers, root cellars, large windows, front porches, and the walls in the older homes and all live via open concept?
Agreed. Then what the rooms and areas of an old house are/were used for is not exactly relevant, is it?
Quote:"I guess this is a new word invented by builders of McMansions, like "post-modern Victorian" -- one of those weird words that evokes something romanticized (like a butler's pantry) but isn't one really."
I guess I invented the 'butler's kitchen' word. That is what the room's function is: It has a pantry in it, and it has a kitchen in it. The main kitchen is separate and formal.
I never have, and never will live in a McMansion. My newer house is a full-custom colonial, with two wings off of it. It is on a huge lot, set way back from the street. Nothing fake. Even the egg-and-dart crown molding is plaster. One of the older houses is an 1876 brick house, with the amenities that you described of older houses.
Quote:"So a back staircase is a novelty and not a usable passageway? I have seen McMansions built with back staircases so how is this a novelty and not something used? Since architectural features in older houses are "just novelties" let's just rip out our fireplaces, the flying buttresses, korbels, and chandeliers, root cellars, large windows, front porches, and the walls in the older homes and all live via open concept?"
I have had back staircases in all my houses, being 140 years old or 10 years old.
I recently successfully got my oldest house on the historic register, it will be in a book on architecture; I don't think you understand what I am saying. The house has 14' ceilings, mahogany and chestnut paneling, doors and trim, 9' windows, cut granite foundations.. carriage house, etc. I love old houses. I don't like the open concept (which, by the way, has nothing to do with space, and, as you indicated, that space is the topic).
A coal bin and huge cistern in the basement is a novelty (but I restored and kept them).
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Some people values their pets very highly (especially if they have no children). It was not a mean comment, just an opinion. You have no idea how my dog lives. And since my comment has nothing to do with this thread, I won't talk about it any more.
Wouldn't your dog be happier sleeping on your bed? A 1300 s.f. dog suite seems dumb to me not becuase dogs are not worthy, but becuase a dog does not want or need a 1300 foot suite and can make no use of it. A dog wants a yard, a ball and space at his masters feet. OUr dogs would be miserable if we stuck them in their own 1300 s.f. suite and they would only ever use about 20 feet of it. A corner to sleep in and a spot by the door to sit and whine to be let out of there.
Wouldn't your dog be happier sleeping on your bed? A 1300 s.f. dog suite seems dumb to me not becuase dogs are not worthy, but becuase a dog does not want or need a 1300 foot suite and can make no use of it. A dog wants a yard, a ball and space at his masters feet. OUr dogs would be miserable if we stuck them in their own 1300 s.f. suite and they would only ever use about 20 feet of it. A corner to sleep in and a spot by the door to sit and whine to be let out of there.
I would absolutely love to have my dog sleep on the bed. My last one did for 13 years. The current SO won't allow it, so I either sleep on the sofa with the dog, or the dog goes to her room (it is right around the corner, and a crate-trained dog doesn't seem to mind). (I end up on the sofa a lot
Here again, as I mentioned earlier, the kitchen, once upon a time, was not a place for guests. And believe it or not, many of us (especially with the historic homes) still practice this -- guests remain out in the parlor, diningroom, or living room where they are not privy to the skin from chopped vegetables, baking pans with roasted juice, or the trash can.
I think that what was beiing said is tha tthe real kitchen is used as a front parlor and the butlers kitchen is the real kitchen. The stove, fridge, diswahser etc in the real kitchen are just expenisve decorative accents.
This is a good idea becuase at many modern parties, if the hosts are not prepared when the guests arrive, everyone ends up in the kitchen. Further, it makes sense to use hte kitchen as a front parlor (or maybe a back parlor) because so many homes no longer have front and back parlors, just a great room and a kitchen. Since you need a front parlor for entertaining, why not have one decorated with nice appliances?
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-- one of those weird words that evokes something romanticized (like a butler's pantry) but isn't one really.
