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yes another water heater replacement topic... with a twist. I can go with three different styles because of how the state rates efficiency in accordance with its rebate program. Read on please:
Short story... converting oil to nat gas. existing electric water heater.
Electric: Just leave my current electric heater in. Saves me nice little up front cost but costs more monthly. Bonus is if we ever go solar in a few years this becomes free? Gas tank: Best balance of monthly costs and install? Gas Tankless: Largest up front. Probably the cheapest each month... some downsides associated with tankess
More detail...
Here's the twist, the state rebates are up to $5000 based on energy efficiency improvements. When the numbers came back from calculations...
Our current Electric water heater was ranked much higher than gas, and just below tankless!!
The installer explained that the program is about energy efficiency and not necessarily the cost of the fuel. So even tho with the North East cheap gas prices (shale!) and basically knowing the costs to run gas will be much cheaper, the state says electric is more efficient and qualifies higher
the good news is.. all three options put me in the golden range of 5k rebate (the heat pump really did the trick). The gas waterheater tank version JUST makes it over the number required.
So I sit with THREE options...
I thought this was an easy "get rid of electric it cost more" but then the state surprised me, and the installer threw the solar/wind idea out there.
im sorry dave........... but a tankless or tank water heater with a recircutation loop is a wast of energy. and I don't like tankless.just my 2cents. im just an old gasman that works on all that crap.
Our current Electric water heater was ranked much higher than gas, and just below tankless!!
These are the costs for heating the water electric vs. gas:
Electric -- @$0.12kWh -- 100%efficiency -- $35.17 per million BTU
NatGas -- @$12/1000cu.foot -- 90% efficiency -- $12.93 per million BTU
There may be differences in the tank ratings themselves based on how well they maintain heat but if you're tank is located in an area that you want some heat that is largely irrelevant.
Quote:
The installer explained that the program is about energy efficiency and not necessarily the cost of the fuel.
Go ask your legislator why the total efficiency cradle to grave is not considered. Electric may be 100% efficient at the point of use but it's ridiculously inefficient to get that energy to you. Just another great example of brain dead government pandering to an industry.
Go ask your legislator why the total efficiency cradle to grave is not considered. Electric may be 100% efficient at the point of use but it's ridiculously inefficient to get that energy to you. Just another great example of brain dead government pandering to an industry.
thank you for the cost ratio information
I am looking at the documentation for the program (New jersey)... and something doesnt make sense.
Electric really isn't listed under Hot Water heaters... and maybe that's the true scenario? by keeping my current HWH it doesn't get applied to the calcs used for the new equipment purchase? Just a guess. Nah... that cant be it.
In the end, its not really a concern for me as we are definitely going gas
I have electric tankless (gas isn't an option) and the system is pretty good. The hot water is (seemingly) limitless although it does take an extra 10-20 seconds to get hot water as compared to a standard W/H.
I would probably say the best balance between purchase vs. operating cost would be a natural gas tank water heater with an energy factor of at least 0.62. Unless if you are going with a heat pump model, electric will never be more efficient than gas since the efficiency in generating that electricity is far lower than that of a natural gas water heater.
Also, as an important thing to keep in mind: avoid all units sold at big-box stores, especially the Whirlpool units sold at Lowes. Their quality is horrible compared to units sold via plumbers. My top pick of brand is Bradford White. In addition, don't assume the big-box store units will always cost less to buy; get several quotes from various plumbers and make a decision yourself.
Tankless is really only worth the extra money (up front cost) if you have a high demand for hot water, such as a large family that showers at the same time.
Tankless water heaters need larger gas lines to handle the higher load, so most installations will have a higher installation cost.
Gas water heaters typically have a faster recovery rate than electric.
A lot depends on your use and demand, and utility costs.
Even with the operating cost being lower with electric...
The installer is recommending we stay with our electric WH now, with him running a gas supply like close by if we convert later.
His logic:
- the electric is a newer Bradford-White, and as electric units go its at higher efficiency
- yes operating costs are higher on electric, but just 3 people in house so not brewing a ton of new hw
- his main deciding factor.. if we really do pursue solar/wind in a year or two the electric HW operating costs go to zero. (not to say we couldnt switch back from gas at that time)
And keeping the electric we arent stopped from switching it to gas later. (although i think high efficiency gas need external ventilation)
To make me feel comfortable... i am going back to thecoalman's numbers he provided to determine a close operating cost difference.
$300/year electric bill, just for the hot water circuit (1700kWh/year)
I have electric hot water and electric clothes dryer (and range, oven, etc). I have a separate meter for the water heater, pay $20-$30 month for electricity to run it, of which about half goes to standby loss (keeping the tank hot even if I use zero hot water).
My 10-year-old electric tank heater won't last much longer, so I'm considering switching to gas tankless, have a propane tank dropped off and a short 1" line run (bigger than needed, so I can eventually convert the clothes dryer, etc).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barking Spider
Tankless is really only worth the extra money (up front cost) if you have a high demand for hot water, such as a large family that showers at the same time. Tankless water heaters need larger gas lines to handle the higher load, so most installations will have a higher installation cost. Gas water heaters typically have a faster recovery rate than electric. A lot depends on your use and demand, and utility costs.
Funny, I'm looking at propane-fired tankless because I have a low demand for hot water, and can't get city natural gas. Installation costs will be about the same for me with either propane-traditional or propane-tankless, since either way I need a propane tank, gas piping, exhaust, etc.
Last year I paid just under $300 for electricity (1700kWH total) just for the hot water circuit, of which nearly half went to standby loss.
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$300/year electric bill, just for the hot water circuit (1700kWh/year)
