Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I'm remodeling an old restaurant (used to be a house) and removed the ceiling and attic floor to open up the main room. I plan on leaving it all opened up, with the rafters in place.
The roof structure is 45'x24', 2x10 rafter beams across, with 2x4s roofside (24" on center).
I'm looking to remove the vertical beams as theyre randomly spaced. One guy said no problem as they're just for the attic floor, which is no more. Another said the roof would be prone to shifting if I did so (or even in its current state). As the 24' rafter span is too great.
The "vertical" SUPPORTS are holding up the ridge- to say, the ridge supports keep the ridge straight and level. The exact spacing isn't critical as long as it doesn't exceed a certain distance. But, relying on the ceiling joists to span that distance AND support the roof- NO WAY, JOSE'! There should probably be a mid span support- or THERE WAS a mid span support like a center hall wall.
Oh well, that's what you get when you turn something into something else it wasn't designed to be!
I agree. If the ridge supports go away you'll be inviting even more problems. Has there been a civil engineer involved yet? Was there formerly a center hall wall before demo started?
the classic answer is "Hire a structural engineer"
the reality is "Good luck finding one, and getting one to come out"
Well.. thats been my experience when wanting to remove a load bearing wall. Was very difficult to locate them, difficult to get them to call back, and difficult for those who did to actually give me the full details of what is needed to support the house load.
Did you take out a wall too? Is the work permitted? I think you are in WAY over your head on this. Wind load, snow load, I've got a bad feeling about this. You need a professional stat!
Not sure why my response didn't go through earlier.
I did not remove any walls whatsoever. The only thing I have removed is a thin attic floor, loose insulation and a drywall ceiling. This is how the building has always been (to think there was a floor up there is hilarious)
I plan to leave all vertical supports in place then. I will likely remove and replace one at a time with new lumber with a better aligned install.
There is no such thing as a ridge support, and no framed connection is based solely on support of nails (so called ridge support connection at ceiling joist). There is what appears too be midspan purlin supports, but not enough can be seen too comment whether they were install correctly or not.
A roof has rafters typically 24" oc, with collar ties in the upper 1/3 every 4' to 6', and the midspan supports can extend the span rating of the lumber. This said, if these Mickey Mouse ridge supports were used it brings in to question everything else, but without better pictures I cannot comment.
A civil engineer does not do structural either. There's been a lot of ignorant comments in this thread from those who have done a little of everything, but surely aren't framers. However, without more pictures I'd leave it alone. It has stood this long and will most likely be around a lot longer.
There is no such thing as a ridge support, and no framed connection is based solely on support of nails (so called ridge support connection at ceiling joist). There is what appears too be midspan purlin supports, but not enough can be seen too comment whether they were install correctly or not.
A roof has rafters typically 24" oc, with collar ties in the upper 1/3 every 4' to 6', and the midspan supports can extend the span rating of the lumber. This said, if these Mickey Mouse ridge supports were used it brings in to question everything else, but without better pictures I cannot comment.
A civil engineer does not do structural either. There's been a lot of ignorant comments in this thread from those who have done a little of everything, but surely aren't framers. However, without more pictures I'd leave it alone. It has stood this long and will most likely be around a lot longer.
I am 100% in agreement with MrWillys on this -- there are lots of really old buildings that are NOT "by the book" but they are solid and have stood the test of time. Often this is becuase the "old timers" did not have the benefit of "finite element analysis" or even the "load ratings"'of the Forest Service Wood Products Lab but they did have the good sense to sorta realize that a big heavy old piece of timber might be plenty strong when there is no load on the roof but a heavy snow load or wicked wind load will need a countervailing sets of collar ties and purlins. DO NOT MESS WITH THIS until / unless some truly skilled engineer / builder is consulted.
Thing too is have been in both residential and commercial spaces that have been "opened up"'in the way that the OP wants to do so I understand how dramatic they can be, BUT I HAVE also seen these kinds of things end up costing a boatload more than the owner thought becuase the permitting authorites have required improvements to firesafety / structure / air quality / energy rating so please do this right or at least have the appropriate budget to hire the right professionals...
I theory, if it were being constructed today out of the correctly sized materials, the vertical supports should not be needed. What is more important are the collar ties, the horizontal 4' ish pieces that are near the top. I would probably make sure there was one on every rafter set as it looks like there are some without them.
On the other hand, I would not take the verticals out without having someone look at it first as you never know what has been done over the years. As K'ledgeBldr said, its possible there was a wall there in the middle at some point and that is a pretty big span. Adding one to every rafter/joist combination and making sure they line up should not hurt, but only take out one at a time and be careful to observe any movement.
It would be the best to have a structural engineer look it over as being a restaurant with the public there is different than a house where you live. Modern day span tables will not account for the wood used way back or the sizing, so its going to be hard to look up. You might really need to sister some larger framing onto the rafters to be safe. Especially if you are in a snow prone area. Things never collapse until one day they do.
Just to update those interested. The structural engineer came in today.
After analysis he claims the verticals were likely put in well past roof construction. They were put in to support the attic floor to walk on (likely for storage) as well as keep the ceiling from sagging.
With no ceiling in place, he claims all verticals do not serve a structural purpose and they may be removed. Further there is no true 'ridge'. Albeit things would be done differently in modern day, the core (triangular) structure can handle all loads across the given span, as they all tension eachother.
I'm going to remove the 2x4 verticals. Possibly the upper collar ties (he mentioned they were just to frame the verticals). I'm going to research more, yet I do trust his professional opinion, and have used him in the past.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Solid advice!
