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My best advice is to buy from a responsible owner who has taken pride in the house and has kept up with reasonable updates and maintenance. I don't mean fashion updates. I mean doing the things that are necessary to keep the house intact and in good repair. Beware the band-aided house as if your life and finances depend upon it (they do).
I've owned a 200 year old house owned by someone who loved it and kept up with the basic maintenance - it needed redecorating and some new items during the time I owned it and enjoyed it, but no evil surprises. Wish I never had to sell that one. It was a good, honest, solid house.
I've also owned a much younger house that had nightmare problems cleverly disguised by a deadbeat owner. There were red flags all over that one that I chose not to see because I coveted the area around it -- BIG mistake. Lots of patchwork "fixes" that led to much deeper problems, extremely expensive to put right. I think the age of the house is not as important as how well it's been built and kept up.
Hire individual licensed professionals (electrician, plumber, roofer, etc.) rather than a "home inspector". Home inspectors, at least in my area, cost a pretty penny and don't have to know local or basic building codes. If you haven't had to deal with a bad inspection report, you won't believe how many problems they can miss - and they don't have to live with the consequences. You do.
You can also check out the "old house" websites. Lots of good info there.
Knob and tube wiring in good condition is not a safety hazard. You do have to understand it to start messing with it and it is harder to deal with than the current stuff. But if left alone and not chewed on by mice so the wire insulation is intact and the connections solid, it is not a safety hazard.
"When did knob and tube wiring become a big deal for insurance companies? I sold my house 3 years ago and the buyer had no problem. I'm not even sure my insurance company knew what type of wiring I had in the house."
We have restored 3 historic homes and assisted in about two dozen others. Everyone that we now, including us had problems with insurance. One company would not even quote us simply because their computer system did not allow a construction date that begins with 18**. Some companies allow knob and tube but require an inspection by a certified electrician that declares the wiring to be safe (a crazy thing to declare regardless of the type of wiring) and what electrician will want to give you a declaration rather than getting a job rewiring the house? Many insurance companies will not even consider you if you have nob & tube wiring.
Most of the problems came from people trying to tie modern wiring into nob & tube wiring, or connecting modern light fixtures to nob & tube. the odds of a problem with wiring along the run are not real high, if there is going to be a problem, it is usually at a connection, or in the fuse/breaker box. Connecting different kinds or sizes of wire can be dangerous, especially if the connection is not secured in a sealed metal or plastic box. Another problem area can be outlets. When they get worn or overloaded, they can burn.
I have owned or rented several houses with nob & tube wiring with no problem whatsoever. our current house had old and new spliced together and you could feel the heat coming from the connections from six inches away. We decided to replace all of it. .
Nice to see you back. I hope your house has come out great. I'll scan through your posts to see if you've posted after pics.
In regard to your post, how could you tell if a house's electrical system has been updated, since the wires are interior? Certainly if one sees a 2-prong outlet, rather than 3... that's obvious. Or, lights that dim when heavy appliances go on... something that might not be evident until moving in, particularly if buying an unlived in home.
My 3-decker hasn't been gutted/re-wired, but because I did all cosmetic renovations & minor updates (electrician installed additional outlets/phone jacks, updated several outlets to 3-prong, added several heavy duty outlets ("5-pronged T" or something similar) for w/d), one might think it had new wiring. But, you know how these old Boston houses were originally wired - outlets on walls connecting separate rooms were on the same circuit, back in the days when small table lamps were almost all that were used. Since I'm running a humidifier/lights/computer/space heater all in 1-room 24/7, when my fridge clicks on in the adjoining room, everything dims/slows for a second. Can't be helped... electrician said I've reached my max energy allowed into the cellar fusebox & $3-6K more would be needed to upgrade the box. Nah... I'll wait to sell within the next few years.
Are these commonly revealed by the homeowner to potential buyers? Just curious & in my case it won't matter, probably. Whomever buys it will gut it & make an upscale condo to sell for $1/2M... But, how would the OP know this without being told?
Thanks.
Have fun... VV
Reading thru these post shows some misunderstandings about knob and tube wiring. To the basic question it is usually unsafe because of the way it was normally installed. Not all installations are the same but it is extremely difficult to know exactly what is there without removing all the interior walls in many cases.
The basic problem was they wired from a spool of single wire. In some cases the neutral wire had a different color jacket; in many they did not, at best it was a sort of off grey color, maybe a crappy white but usually not clear what is what, just from the color of the wire. Everything might be a black wire, you figure out what is what, it varies house to house. It might have all come off the same spool in many houses. It is difficult to figure out exactly what the circuit is and draw it out even if you have good access in many cases. The neutrals and hots do not run to the same places / methods like in modern wiring. ie switches just have the one wire. You can go nuts trying to trace it out if hidden. Duh, what is the neutral for this particular circuit and where does it connect, crazy parallel circuits all over the place. Nothing is wired by floor, area or zone like you expect in a modern house. Any circuit can go anywhere in the house and might just do so.
In modern Romex type wiring, each circuit has three wires contained in the bundle, a hot (black) a neutral (white) and ground (bare copper) so each circuit only is carrying the same current in the neutral wire as in the hot wire.
Not so in the old knob and tube. They did something called sharing the neutral. Various circuits hot wires might share the same returning neutral, was a very common type installation. Say you have three circuits, all the hot sides are carrying 10 amps, they share a common neutral going back to the panel. The fuses / breakers only are monitoring the current in the hot side, the neutral side has zero protection, about like Murphy's Law, it is the hidden flaw that kills you. That neutral wire will be carrying 30 amps over part of its length and has no type of protection to limit the current being carried, hence why it normally is the source of the fire. Changing out the service panel from the old fuses to circuit breaker has zero effect on the basic problem.
In the old days it was not considered that big a problem. Houses only had a few light bulbs, maybe a radio, fridge, etc, the wiring was very lightly loaded. Fast forward to 2008 and the situation is different. Every current gobbing device in the World is in the same house. The potential for electrical fires is really there, probably will occur in the neutrals. Might occur in the main service cable. Most are not in any kind of conduit, most are not proper sized for the present situation, you can not just keep adding circuits inside the house. Most of the junk I see is probably good for maybe 60 amps total and you are taking a big risk at that level. Peeps are treating the house like a modern house wired for 200 amps main service, out of sight, out of mind until the flames lick their chins.
In the present house I have, that was gutted and totally rewired all the problems of knob and tube wiring were present. Shared neutrals, they had jumpered the outlets of the fuse box to put everything in parallel, real genuis solution to prevent fuses from blowing. Only four fuses for the entire house, the way it was wired was about like putting pennies in the fuse box. This house also had modern wire mixed in as screwy additions. The prior old boy had at least 4 electrical fires that I found. Three occurred in wire between joists (those had been further spliced and jury rigged) , one occurred in a metal box and that circuit had been abandoned and another wire jury rigged to bypass it. Something to sleep with real comfort. Just moving the old wiring around during construction to put other things in would cause fireballs and sparks a foot long but I never blew a fuse, it can be an experience.
In addition the wire was not the same. Some houses have a non-standard wire size. About like a modern size #13, weird stuff. Plus the old wire was full on impurities and much higher resistance than good modern wire. If you cut thru a piece with cutters it is dull looking inside. Lots of ways to get into trouble. If the fire occurs in a ceiling area, there is a film of dust on the old lath and if burning insulation drips it is like a tinder box.
To the question, how do you tell if it has been updated? I would want to first be told all the old wiring was cut out or abandoned in place and have it in writing. Then you can inspect the house. The incoming main service cable should be new and of the proper size. A new panel with circuit breakers. Inspection of the panel should find no old wiring in the panel. You can tell just by its feel and look. All the old wire that is visible (basement / attic / etc) should have been physically cut out. I even pull the old knobs, so there is no question. Plus you can sell the old wire, copper brings good money these days.
You can also tell by pulling receptacles, light switches, etc. You can tell the difference in the old wire and modern Romex. Many times you can see the jacket at the connector for the various types of cable, the wire is also different, pretty easy to tell. What ever, you should not find any old wire connected and active anywhere in a properly done job. It should all be new modern wiring, devices, boxes, etc for the most part. Reusing old metal boxes is ok, but I would not reuse any of the old switches, etc.
The general area where I now live has a lot of house fires. Many of them are electrical in nature. Just had one after Xmas. Big Victorian type house with the towers and fancy roof. Burnt that puppy out total. Apparently nobody home at the time, even the kitty made it out. Below is a pix of what happened. They knocked the house down after a few days. These type fires are not that rare. No wonder insurance companies finally are getting a bit shy about assuming the risk.
KittenPurr, yes my house is pretty well done. Even had one of the girlfriends go wild and do a lot of the decorating. Will take a bunch more pixs and post them in that thread in the next week or so. It is nice to be living more like a normal human for once. Next big thing is going shopping for furniture. Why does the Federal Government need a program for stimulating the economy, I have been doing it pretty well myself this last month.
Yup I do know about old Boston houses. Just keep that insurance paid up and make sure you have plenty of it.
Bottom line: A home inspection here in the Twin Cities costs about $300.00. They go over every little detail - takes about 2 hours average. You go with them. They catch things that most people don't even know about. It's an extremely wise investment which saves headaches later on.
Our house is more than 100 years old and although we love it, we learned that many people love the "idea" of owning an old house, but maybe not the "reality of living in an old house.
That said, pay more attention to the things that will cost the most to repair now or in the future. First, I would definitely get a professional inspection by someone who has done a lot of old houses. And tell them what you are concerned about specifically. Remember, the standards for a 100-year-old house are a lot different than a newer one.
On the electrical, you need to know how many amps your panel can handle. Old homes had probably 60-90 amps. Today, with all the electronics we have, you should have a 200-amp panel. If you look at the electrical panel and it has fuses, you know the wiring is really dated. If it has breakers, it's at least from the 20th century. Also, look at the wiring in the attic, if it's knob and tube, that would be the oldest, cloth wrapped would be an upgrade but 50-years or more. Romex? You're looking good.
Plumbing. If it's galvanized, you'll want to change it out someday. And don't just go by what sticks out of the wall. Many times, old fittings are replaced over the years with copper that is tied into galvanized.
Heating. This is really big and can be a real money sink depending on where you live. Most really old houses had one central heating vent, usually in the living room area floor. A heck of a lot of heat has to be pushed through there to heat a whole house. When we updated our system, we used that as the cold-air intake and put vents into all the rooms.
Insulation. Another biggie. This will be more difficul to tell. You can have insulation blown into the walls, which is better than nothing. Also, don't forget under the floors. You're not likely to have any insulation there. And if it hasn't been done, max out the insualtion in the attics. Remember, heat rises and that's where it's usually lost.
Regardless of what you do, older houses are drafty -- it's part of their charm -- so if you are really bothered by cold, they aren't for you. But if you're willing to put on a sweater or snuggle under a throw, then you have the right mindset.
Before you decide against an old house, I wouldn't trade mine for a brand new custom job that may be worth twice as much. But I am not a fan of drywall, MDF, sytrofoam, plastic laminates, vinyl and all the other "modern" easy-care stuff. I've owned homes built in the 60s, 70s, 80s, etc. There's nothing like a really old house. They are unique unto themselves. We have several friends who have very high-end homes newly custom built and they all feel the same to me -- granite, pillars, elaborate mdf moldings, marble, etc., etc. I'll take a 100-year-old wood floor, scars and all, any day.
In my opinion, and it's just that, they have no soul, which is something old houses, regardless of their difficiencies, have in abundance.
On the electrical, you need to know how many amps your panel can handle. Old homes had probably 60-90 amps. Today, with all the electronics we have, you should have a 200-amp panel. If you look at the electrical panel and it has fuses, you know the wiring is really dated. If it has breakers, it's at least from the 20th century. Also, look at the wiring in the attic, if it's knob and tube, that would be the oldest, cloth wrapped would be an upgrade but 50-years or more. Romex? You're looking good.
Plumbing. If it's galvanized, you'll want to change it out someday. And don't just go by what sticks out of the wall. Many times, old fittings are replaced over the years with copper that is tied into galvanized.
Heating. This is really big and can be a real money sink depending on where you live. Most really old houses had one central heating vent, usually in the living room area floor. A heck of a lot of heat has to be pushed through there to heat a whole house. When we updated our system, we used that as the cold-air intake and put vents into all the rooms.
I would say do not judge it as upgraded if the electrical panel has been replaced with circuit breakers. The real danger is in the wire and how it has been installed. It is even more complicated. Not all the old wire is the same.
I saw a lot of it in New England that was horrible. The copper was not very pure, some of it had nickel and lord knows what else. It would turn green under the insulation, was very brittle. Lot of it had the old rayon / rubber covering, was very dangerous stuff, would crumble very easy. Just trying to move it could be tricky. Even the old BX cable which you would find in the New England area had horrible insulation. Not that much of a fire hazard but not something to continue using. I would want any older house that has non-modern wire to be totally replaced. Would spend a super amount of time inspecting the wiring and know exactly what I was getting into. The cost of rewiring has gone up a lot in the last year or so. Wire is expensive, I paid like $800 for materials to totally rewire my old shack and today that same job might cost like $3000.
The stuff I generally see in these parts of Ohio is not too bad as far as wire goes. The wire is tinned and is not very brittle. The insulation is some type of braided fabric with a good type of rubber / tar like coating that remains pretty intact, does not crack or crumble. But I still would demand it all be replaced. The real flaw is in how it was installed and how the circuits themselves carry the load. Just can not trust the old installations.
All old houses seem to have one major flaw in terms of the plumbing. They never had a good vent system run as you would find in a moden house. The vent lines either do not exist, things like sinks and non-toilet or anything off the main stacks typically are never vented properly. What vent lines there are typcially under sized, in many places the small drain lines are not up to code, either under sized, located improperly, there never are proper clean outs, traps, etc. I never would want an older house with ancient plumbing, never saw an old house I thought that was well done in that area. Inspections never do tell the real story as to what you have for plumbing. Lot of the old plumbing was never sloped correctly when originally installed. Problem houses tend to be surprise, surprise and then can be a bear to fix it. I wound up doing a total gut on the plumbing and a complete rerouting of the drain paths because the original system was so badly designed. Some old systems are impossible to live with.
One area in the heating systems for old houses that can be a bugger if they are forced hot air is getting the duct work up to snuff. I had that problem in my old house that I just redone. The upstairs area had no heat. Was able to run heating ducts upstairs but it wasn't practical to run return ducts from the upstairs. Unless you are willing to gut it enough, getting optimal runs is tough, plus in the older bigger houses it can be a bear to balance out the air flows. Old houses have their drawbacks in terms of utilities, even if you do a pretty good total gut. Modern designs have their floor plans especially adapted to fitting in utilities the optimal way.
Today I want to trade houses again but don't want to look at another older house. Better to build it new to my specs. Way to many older houses need to be taken down to the shell level and today a lot of those type projects do not make much economic sense. I would be looking at any older house for purchase with a fine tooth comb. Sure would not pay the money many are asking. Friend of mine has a old Victorian that she bought a couple of years ago. Lord the work it is going to take to get some of the needed areas redone. Charm is one thing, lot of houses are a money pit and they never will be that trouble free even if you spend a ton of it.
Thank you all for a great lesson, particularly shared stories on electrical wiring. I'm sure the OP had her questions answered. It's been very useful for me & I appreciate everyone's time.
I'll copy off some & keep for future reference... hope to sell my 1890 Boston 3-decker within 5-yrs & move to a small town, out of state. I'd definitely purchase another older home & do some refurbishing as I'm doing now (nothing against newer... I'm going by price), but not without a posse of house doctors with toolbelts, goggles & required licenses to tell me yay or nay.
Cosmic, glad everything's working out well for you in OH... on the house front & socially! Woo hoo... VV
Kittens, I am glad to hear the big move is still being planned. But do be careful of those older houses and buying "Charm".
One more way you can get into trouble is in the electrical area is "Leaking Devices". Things like switches and receptacles, etc. They appear to work but are defective and let small leakage currents flow in circuits when you think it is turned off. Old three way or four way switches never seem to work as they should. Even fairly modern houses can and do have badly grounded systems. If you ever had experience with home automation type systems it is very badly affected, most times the problems are traced to bad grounding of the system or defective components used somewhere. A few hours can't start to really find all the potential problems any house may have.
Had that leakage problem in my old shack, appeared again in the old Victorian I have been helping with. Just about no inspection will find these type problems, inspections are good but not the final word by a long shot. So much they will never find.
Recently in the old Victorian we were upgrading the basement lighting. I turned off the power at the light switch, tested it dead with the tester. Started to work on some rewiring and could feel a tingle at times. Duh, bad old switch that was "Leaking" not enough to maybe be super dangerous but using a more sensitive tester the leakage was clear as a type of static voltage present when the circuit should have been totally dead. Very common problem in older houses. Even turning it off at the panel might still give that result in many older houses. That and grounding type problems.
That particular house had a reputation as being haunted by the locals. Lights appear to come on / off by themselves, weird things happen in modern electronic devices, clocks alarm, TV channels flip, etc. Modern telephones equipment will do weird stuff if plugged into 120VAC power. It has nothing to do with Uncle Harry's ghost. A total upgrade of the old wiring system sends him away. Should let the peeps sleep better.
Inspections are nice but they have limits. Especially in areas like utilities, electrical, plumbing, etc. In many cases you never know how bad it really is until some work actually starts.
Wiring and plumbing installed between WWI and WWII is very suspect. Lots of strange things happened in the late 1920's in terms of type of materials used. Some real crap stuff got used and called copper wire. In around 1928 or so they tried going to a fine threaded fittings in plumbing for a few years. Lot of the old brass pipe, fittings had nickel and modern water systems with chlorinated water that eats the nickel out and the stuff is brittle as heck. Looks fine until you touch it, then snap, snap, snap. Everything breaks with little force. I have had that experience one too many times.
I would never buy an older house and assume it doesn't have problems.
Forget about inspections, that is only the tip of the iceberg. Somehow I would have to have some deducts just based on age or solid proof that a lot of modern upgrades had been well done. Something like pixs taken during when walls were open and I could see some of the work that was still exposed. It would have to appear as modern systems with good quality workmanship and hopefully could pass a modern inspection as a new house would. Add on's and jury rigs would not make it in my book. A lot will depend on the house, its age, condition but certain things would be totally unacceptable, ie, old wiring or electrical systems would be high on that list. Might still buy if the price was right but the price would have to reflect the true condition.
I sure would never buy an older house based on "Charm", location or anything not directly related to condition. I also would never move in until all the necessary work was completed. Been there, done that, hopefully this old shack I presently have is my last old house. The way the present economics is being shopped around, older houses are way over priced in my book for the problems they usually have.
One of my sisters / BIL have been in the market for another house. They look around until they find something interesting and usually have me come take a look at it, usually they do not want a new house. Haven't seen anything yet that I was impressed with. Including new houses. Everything is over priced in terms of what will be required to make it right. New houses tend to have too much cheap junk that will have to be replaced soon. Things like cheap windows, furnace, roofing, etc. Eye appeal and all that standard real estate babble is very in. Inspections are good if the persons are very knowledgable, not emotional or financially involved. Beware of inspectors on the payroll of real estate agents. Also beware of folks looking to get work from such activities, the World is a funny place.
I thought most 100 year old homes have hot water heating with a furnace/boiler and registers. If not you are already in good shape. I have a boiler that is probably 50 years old and it works great. Downside is they require some attention and the pipes are wrapped with abestos. I have an unfinished basement so the abestos down there doesn't bother me. I figure its best to leave it alone for now but someday I will take it out. Check for sagging floors,sagging roof-most old houses don't have proper attic ventilation, this causes sagging roof and ice dams. Make sure the footings or concrete poured walls are in good shape. Make sure you there is good water pressure and toilet flushes normally-most cities say your responsible for the plumbing that leads out to the street or alley. It you have bad plumbing under the ground this will cost you some cash to repair. I bought my house cheap for 48,000 but I knew it needed a roof,siding, windows-all of which I have replaced, the house now is worth 125,000 so an old home is a good investment if you are willing to give it what it needs and maintain the rest. My house has really old electrical wires and circuit breaker is round fuses but I've never had a problem with it. Check for water damage on the ceilings to see if it has a leaky roof. Re-roof will cost you around 5,000 dollars on a average house if you have someone else do it. Don't let the good things you like about the house shadow over the obvious bad things. Let the house seek you out. I love my house,it was a headache at first but I'm happy with it now. EW
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Knob and tube wiring.......
