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Old 08-26-2016, 05:59 AM
 
28,662 posts, read 18,764,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lepoisson View Post
I've spent a lot of time in Europe. Houses there are built with roofs that last 50-75 years. Floors are usually solid wood, marble, or stone. All interior doors are made with solid wood. Walls are more solid feeling (knock on a wall here in the US and it sounds hollow). However, things like plumbing and insulation are very similar. American homes might even have better insulation.

Some people think that because many European homes are hundreds of years old, they are better built. I suppose it's true. But even the newer homes in Europe are build better. I rented a house in France that was built in the 1950s and it had all of the features I mentioned above.
Well, I bought a modest American ranch that was built in the 50s. It was built of solid old-wood fir timbers, steel I-beams for floor support, was heavily insulated, solid copper plumbing, 8-foot-ceilinged concrete block basement. The interior walls were drywall, but all were covered with an additional 3/8-inch of mirror-smooth plaster, even in the closets. Solid as a rock.
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:00 AM
 
28,662 posts, read 18,764,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
And yet there are folks, like the Amish, who have "house raisings" and endow newlyweds with a whole house, sans mortgage.
Imagine that.
A few generations ago, many communities had house and barn raisings, that were far less expensive to build and own, since there weren't socialist taxes, bureaucrats to fund, and code enforcers.
That's because by your own description, they were already local socialists.
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:07 AM
 
28,662 posts, read 18,764,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vladlensky View Post
To some extent, I noticed the same as the OP, when I travelled to Europe (specifically the Mediterranean areas of Italy, France, etc) the houses were mostly constructed of concrete or brick with tile or marble flooring. Windows and doors were generally heavy and the construction seemed largely to do with natural means of climate-control (high ceilings, bare marble/tile floors) in lieu of air conditioning.

India was much the same, with most of the houses constructed out of concrete, making the addition of
new levels fairly straightforward. Again, ceilings were high with metal vents cut between rooms to allow for the passage of airflow (and house lizards!)

The homes in the UK seemed most similar to our standard suburban cookie-cutter construction, although brick seems to be the material of choice - possibly due to the potential for wood siding rot given the climate? While there, I rented a renovated bungalow-style home (1920's construction) and dealt with a fare share of shoddy contractors installing crappy 'upgraded' fixtures, so I think they deal with much of the same nonsense we do in the US - unlicensed contractors tend to be pretty common.
Look to the cost of labor versus material, particularly manufactured material. Concrete is very cheap compared to most manufactured materials, and using concrete is nearly dirt cheap as long as you can get labor dirt cheap. Where labor is expensive, a manufactured material that needs little labor to erect will be cheaper. That's why in the Philippines so many homes have concrete block walls where in the US most homes will have a manufactured fence. Where natural stone can be procured cheaply, it's a cheap material as long as labor is cheap.

"Natural means of climate control" works where natural climate is usually fairly mild (nowhere in the US midlands or north).
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:18 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,650 posts, read 60,853,687 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukas1973 View Post
Quote:
Of course that's smart, but that's also the reason why kitchens, bathrooms and such things often looks so similar in the U.S. Builder and home owner with the intention to sell their home will almost always choose the most common design to attract as many potential buyers as possible. That doesn't mean that Americans don't try to remodel their home to their own taste, but it's far less common.
Why do so many European homes look so similar? Why is the furniture so similar across the board? Sorry, but I don't see any more variety in European style than I see in American style.

Quote:
But I don't understand why manufacturer think it's ok to produce new furniture that looks antique. That seems fake to me. Antique furniture are precious because they are antique, but producing antique furnitures imitates is false in my opinion.

I think you are right about that. Many Germans buy furniture with the intention to replace them after a few years anyway. The furniture design is evolving so quickly. Furnite are seen buy many people as a "Wegwerfprodukt" (disposable product?) nowadays. It was completely different 20 or 30 years ago.
Quote:
But antique furniture are indeed just for enthusiasts, it's not appreciated by the crowd. I personally don't like antique or traditional furniture, but at least I know to appreciate them. I also can determine whether a furniture is made with solid wood or veneered with real wood or just covered with plastic foil as a wood imitate. Whether it's made from plywood or chipboard. I have encounter people that think their new white and black wall unit for the living room for 200 Euro is made out of solid birch and oak
I bolded the parts above to ask a specific question - why in your mind is it "fake" to reproduce a classic antique design, but it's OK to make fake wood?

See, your ideas are subjective. That's OK - my opinions about the style of contemporary European furniture are also subjective.

One more point - many Americans can determine whether furniture is solid wood or veneer or plastic as well. And many more, like many Europeans, can't seem to tell the difference.

I think it's safe to say that just as many Americans have good taste - and bad taste - as their European counterparts.
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,650 posts, read 60,853,687 times
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One more point about insulation and building materials.

I live in Texas. Our summers are long and hot. My average electric bill has been less than $200 a month, at the highest - in other words, around 160 euros. Those are not my average amounts for the YEAR, but for the summer (my electric bills are significantly lower in the dead of winter, when my natural gas bill may come to -at the most - the equivalent of about 60 euros while my electric bill drops to about 100 euros). So in other words, my average monthly utility costs are about 160 euros at the height of summer and winter, and drop significantly below that in the milder months.

I can live with that.
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:28 AM
 
1,364 posts, read 1,115,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Tankless water heaters are very popular, too. No wasted energy in keeping a storage tank hot.
I'm not an expert in how water is heated. Those tankless water heaters (Durchlauferhitzer) are quite common in apartments. They use normally electricity, that's in Germany a kinda expensive way to heat the water. I don't like them because it can get really expensive.

The most common way to heat the water in Germany is that it's combined with the central heating system in the basement. It's normally a tankless boiler with a gas burner that heats water for the radiators / floor heating. One part of this gas burner starts up if you turn the mixer tap to hot. After a few seconds (depending on the distance to the boiler) hot water comes out of the tap I have never seen a storage tank for hot water, but they seem to exist:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtDbfV5dsNs

I don't understand what they are taling about, my knowledge about these things is rather limited.

In my house it's far less complicated (it's the way I have described above). Here in Düsseldorf where I rent an "Einliegerwohnung" (granny flat?) space heating and heating the tap water is done by "Fernwärme" (district heating?). Thermal power plants pump hot water through large parts of the city. There are a lot of pipes in a basement room and a boiler where the hot water from the thermal power plant heats the tap water. The tap water is extremely hot and it's also pretty fast. The hot water for the radiators comes directly from the thermal power plant. I find that pretty convenient. The annual fix costs are pretty high, but you don't have to renew the installations and no maintenance charges. The variable costs are pretty low. My landlord pays for his family of 4 and me about 230 Euro per month for electricity, water and heating (about 200m² living space).

Fix costs / variable costs:
- Space heating: 600 Euro / 400 Euro
- Heating tap water: 300 Euro / 50 Euro
- Drinking water: 100 Euro / 250 Euro
- Electrictiy: 100 Euro / 1,000 Euro
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,162 posts, read 4,483,879 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lepoisson View Post
I've spent a lot of time in Europe. Houses there are built with roofs that last 50-75 years. Floors are usually solid wood, marble, or stone. All interior doors are made with solid wood. Walls are more solid feeling (knock on a wall here in the US and it sounds hollow). However, things like plumbing and insulation are very similar. American homes might even have better insulation.

Some people think that because many European homes are hundreds of years old, they are better built. I suppose it's true. But even the newer homes in Europe are build better. I rented a house in France that was built in the 1950s and it had all of the features I mentioned above.

Even the $500,000 home that my friend's parents bought doesn't feel as sturdy as the crappy studio I rented in Paris years back.

Why are construction methods so different between the US and other parts of the world?
Do you think the world would be a better place if all homes were made from solid wood and stone?

I would LOVE to have 2" think solid wood floors. I could get them too, though they would cost a pretty penny, from old growth Brazilian hard wood. What do you think happens when everybody does this?



Solid wood cabinets, solid wood doors, Ivory handles for my cabinets, marble floors......where does it stop?

BTW, I love the thought of solid wood doors but they are not always better. They are more prone to swelling and warping.
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Old 08-26-2016, 06:54 AM
 
24,479 posts, read 10,804,014 times
Reputation: 46766
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
Do you think the world would be a better place if all homes were made from solid wood and stone?

I would LOVE to have 2" think solid wood floors. I could get them too, though they would cost a pretty penny, from old growth Brazilian hard wood. What do you think happens when everybody does this?



Solid wood cabinets, solid wood doors, Ivory handles for my cabinets, marble floors......where does it stop?

BTW, I love the thought of solid wood doors but they are not always better. They are more prone to swelling and warping.
Should we explain to OP the benefits of engineered beams and trusses and that 3-/5-layer plywood has been around in Europe for decades?
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Old 08-26-2016, 07:46 AM
 
Location: On the Chesapeake
45,336 posts, read 60,500,026 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Threestep View Post
Should we explain to OP the benefits of engineered beams and trusses and that 3-/5-layer plywood has been around in Europe for decades?
He'd, among others, would just say that we're either builder shills or don't know what we're talking about.

I have an older house, built in 1916, with a stone first floor. It is a pure pain in the ass to work on.

Like Norm Abrams says, they don't build'em like they used to and that's a good thing.
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Old 08-26-2016, 08:03 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,650 posts, read 60,853,687 times
Reputation: 101073
Quote:
In my house it's far less complicated (it's the way I have described above). Here in Düsseldorf where I rent an "Einliegerwohnung" (granny flat?) space heating and heating the tap water is done by "Fernwärme" (district heating?). Thermal power plants pump hot water through large parts of the city. There are a lot of pipes in a basement room and a boiler where the hot water from the thermal power plant heats the tap water. The tap water is extremely hot and it's also pretty fast. The hot water for the radiators comes directly from the thermal power plant. I find that pretty convenient. The annual fix costs are pretty high, but you don't have to renew the installations and no maintenance charges. The variable costs are pretty low. My landlord pays for his family of 4 and me about 230 Euro per month for electricity, water and heating (about 200m² living space).
Interesting. 230 Euros a month comes to around $275/$300 a month. I think that's generally what the same utilities would cost in most US homes - certainly that's the top of what our personal combined utility costs are per month, for 2500 square feet, which is about 755 meters of space. Sometimes if we have a very dry summer and I want to keep the grass green, our water bill can push that utility total up to about $350 but that's just a few months out of the year.

Just for comparison - not criticizing anything.
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