Electrical Breaker Box and Wiring (how much, Home Depot, heaters, install)

[AVTechMan]

I took a look at my breaker box on my house yesterday afternoon and its pretty rusted out, so I will need to replace the box. I discovered that after removing the backing plate that the wiring is indeed copper wire, though the house has all 2-prong outlets.

Question, would it make sense to get a 200-amp breaker box or a 125 breaker box? As for the house itself, it was built in '65 and with 1283 sqft of living space. If there was a need to add additional circuits later on in the future, would a larger amp box be ideal? I am not sure if the existing breakers in the original box are good, but I think it will be a good idea to get new ones installed (plus the added benefit of having a master breaker). As of now the original box has 7 20-amp breakers and 2 40-amp double pole ones (one is for the central A/C).

[TransAm]

I think I would go with the 200-amp breaker box, I just had mine done last year,you never know what your needs my be in the future.

[JBrown]

If you replace the box with increased amp capability you'll have to change the gauge of the feed from the meter to the mains also...you'll fail an inspection if you don't.

[rubytue]

200 amp is the way to go. The power needs of todays houses are much greater than they were in 1965 (HDTV, TV in every room, computers, DVs, home theaters, just to name a few). That said, JBrown is right. You can't just upgrade your panel board and have 200 amps. You have to do a full service change, which requires a new feed, new grounds, probably a new meter base, etc. Probably not a DIY job, since you should have permits and to coordinate with the electric company if you change the meter.

[Cosmic]

As mentioned you will have to replace the entire service. Probably new everything, feed cable, conduit, new head, etc. In most locations it is not a DIY type job, will have to have a permit. But there are some ways to help yourself. In some places the power company supplies the meter box, maybe not in others.

Reuse the old breakers, those represent a fair amount of money. The quality of the present ones if USA made might be better than the new import junk. No real reasons not to reuse if they are not a problem now. Just know the breakers from different manufacturers do not normally fit in the other guys panel. Example GE in a GE panel, Square D in a Square D panel. If you do the planning can use the old breakers. Pull a breaker and compare it to a new one of the same manufacturer, buy that panel. Breaker will say on the side who made it. Siemens usually is the cheaper manufacturer these days.

Don't let the guy run off with the old copper cable. Pull it out from the old service once they remove it, take it to a junk recycle place that will pay for it. If you strip the insulation, they will pay more. Easy to do, sharp knife. Can find such folks in the Yellow Page, be surprising how much heavy copper cable is worth these days as scrap. Another way to cut your own costs.

Work all this out with the electrician guy before hand. Don't let them rape you. Just know the electrical stuff has gone out of sight in the past few years. I rewired my entire house nice quality job couple years ago with 200 amp service and over rated the service cable to 000, that included a lot of receptacles, lights, etc that you wouldn't get in the normal job and all the materials ran like $800 for the whole house. Today same job might run $2500 for the same materials.

Get yourself knowledgable enough to go price out the material independently at a local supply house. Know within a percent what the job is worth materials wise. See if your quoted job is reasonable, don't let these guys hose you, happens way to often. The old copper belongs to you, don't let them run off with it, maybe don't mention that up front. Just say you have a use for it once the old cable is on the ground.

Get a quality job for your money, this might take an experienced guy, something like half a day but it is far from rocket science. Costs will probably vary a bit depending on local conditions, how hungry or busy the guy is.

Good luck on the project. Great thing to do for many older homes, you will be a lot safer too. House should be worth a bit more.

[rubytue]

I totally agree about saving the copper! I'm still annoying the my husband let the plumbers run off with 15 feet of copper vent pipe. Yes, our vent pipe was copper! He should know better. With the price of copper these days, I bet that was $100 in copper.

[AVTechMan]

Ok, so 200 amp box it is then. I will contact the light company tomorrow to check out the specifics and whether a new meter will be needed. There is already one on the house. If I was to turn on service now all they would have to do I think would be to turn it on from somewhere.

Since my house is in a rural area, I will check to see if a permit is needed. From what I have been hearing from the locals, there aren't too many permits you have to worry about as much, but I will check myself to be sure.

Best to have more than needed and have it than to need them and not have them. And as much as I have been hearing about the high theft of copper recently, I definitely will hold on to mine from whatever old copper is removed and get some cash for it. May even help recoup my costs.

[Cosmic]

Your situation may be similar to what I had.

My county has no building permit requirements for anything, including electrical. If you want to change the service yourself, there is a contact guy at the electric company. They are about as close to regulations as it gets.

He comes out and looks at your house, in my area, they supply the meter box, you must use it, no options. They have a printed out handout that tells exactly what is required, including sizes for everything and how it is too be installed. The handout is very detailed. They required a 200 amp service minimum on a new / upgrade for a house.

You install the new service, call them and they come back out and usually run new wires from the pole if things are pretty old. In theory, they are supposed to inspect the service.

My guy didn't even go in the house. He made a big point about leaving them plenty of cable extra slack at the head when they were out the first time. Guy took his big snips and cut my cable to length making sure all the pieces fell into his bucket, then proceeded to roll up the old overhead wire and careful stash it in his truck. They also were very particular that the overhead wires were above 16 foot crossing the roadway and your service head was high enough. Didn't seem to care about nothing else once they had their hands on that scrap. Guess it counted as some kind of tip.

It is not just the copper. Ohio does not have a bottle deposit on beer, soda, etc. We get to sell the aluminum cans as scrap. Two big bags crushed, got me like $47 on the last run over to the scrap yard. Just about any type metals are bringing top dollar. Even very light scrap steel. Still haven't sold my copper or cast iron from the rehab. See what goes up faster, gasoline or the metals.

[rubytue]

Originally Posted by AVTechMan

Ok, so 200 amp box it is then. I will contact the light company tomorrow to check out the specifics and whether a new meter will be needed. There is already one on the house. If I was to turn on service now all they would have to do I think would be to turn it on from somewhere.

Not the meter, but the meter base. May not be required, but its unlikely to be something the power company would have on record (who knows, maybe they do, but they don't 'round here - they don't supply the base around here either). Also, around here you have to run the drop from the new weather head to the meter base. A couple years ago, the power company did that here, now they don't. [snip DH's rant on the power company]

BTW, this is not a simple or easy job. It generally takes two electricians 4 to 6 hours to do this (depending on how accessible your panel board is). And its not like you can go to the Depot and buy a meter base and ground rods Also, gotta remember its all live before the panel. If you take the panel off without pulling the meter base, you have live wires. You willing to pull a live panel? Please, follow Cosmic's tips on how to hire it out. There is a reason the Home Depot book on electrical wiring doesn't cover a service change.

one more thing, you don't have an FPE panel board, do you? I'm not sure of the exact timeframe of those, but don't try to reuse those breakers Not that you'll be able to since they don't make them anymore. But if you do have Federal Pacific (FPE), you really need to have it replaced

And remember, when you see Cosmic talking about doing it himself, he is an electrician

You guys are so lucky on the pemitting thing. We gotta have a permit to put up a fence I'm so jealous!!

[AVTechMan]

Originally Posted by rubytue

Not the meter, but the meter base. May not be required, but its unlikely to be something the power company would have on record (who knows, maybe they do, but they don't 'round here - they don't supply the base around here either). Also, around here you have to run the drop from the new weather head to the meter base. A couple years ago, the power company did that here, now they don't. [snip DH's rant on the power company]

BTW, this is not a simple or easy job. It generally takes two electricians 4 to 6 hours to do this (depending on how accessible your panel board is). And its not like you can go to the Depot and buy a meter base and ground rods Also, gotta remember its all live before the panel. If you take the panel off without pulling the meter base, you have live wires. You willing to pull a live panel? Please, follow Cosmic's tips on how to hire it out. There is a reason the Home Depot book on electrical wiring doesn't cover a service change.

one more thing, you don't have an FPE panel board, do you? I'm not sure of the exact timeframe of those, but don't try to reuse those breakers Not that you'll be able to since they don't make them anymore. But if you do have Federal Pacific (FPE), you really need to have it replaced

And remember, when you see Cosmic talking about doing it himself, he is an electrician

You guys are so lucky on the pemitting thing. We gotta have a permit to put up a fence I'm so jealous!!

The panel board isn't an FPE board, and the breakers that are in the box are GE ones that my friend examined. I don't know if the whole service has to be changed, since the meter isn't turning at all. I will talk to him today and find out if that's what needs to be done. If it does then it's gonna cost alot more for such a change.

I probably should train to be an electrician but I know such work also requires alot of patience and cautions to make sure you don't fry yourself, knowing the kind of danger that work can be. There are too many so-called electirican contractors that want to take you for a long ride with your wallet its hard to trust anyone these days. But since my friend and my mom knows an electrician, it won't be that bad at all. In fact they did the service change to my mom's new addition several years ago; all the light company did was to come out and add a new meter to the base.

As far as permits, take a look at the pic I attached below. This was before I closed on the house, and this wire is still there for now until I have it taken down. This one ran direct from the breaker box above to the tree, wrapped as you see in the pic and runs into one of the old storage sheds the former (deceased actually) owner had. Now if that isnt unsafe I dont know what is, but, if that was in a city an inspector would definitely have said no to that. But apparently there are no permitting regulations where my house is since it still is hanging there, for now.


Thanks for the tips!