Electrical Relay Switch (floor, engineered, grille, heat)

[tambre]

Hi,
Hoping there are some electricians on here that can help. We renovated our house and included a whole house fan, instead of A/C, which was too costly. We found out that there is a building code that says if the smoke detectors go on in the case of a fire, the whole house fan needs to automatically shut off. The whole house fan is on a remote control. None of the local electricians seem to be able to fix this. We have purchased three different relays, a Carb. Mon./Smoke detector that was compatible, but they just don't work together. When we recently spoke with a representative of the FireX company, it turns out they stopped making the FireX 12000 relay that would work with our system (at least that's the latest gadget we are supposed to find to fix this problem). Do we need to redo all of our smoke detectors in order to get this compatibility? How would you approach this? The last electrician suggested that we get rid of the whole house fan.

P.S. Our contractor's son did the work, and then the contractor walked out on the job (got paid all his money, then said he wasn't coming back). What would you do? We have our house on the market, but will have to get this straightened out, in order to get a C.O.

Thanks.

[harry chickpea]

A fuseable link or high temp cutoff has been the common way to handle stuff like this. Be sure you are reading the code correctly. If it is the code, you could ask at the fire department if they have any recommended devices, or if you could see some installations that have been done right. Personally, I wonder whether such a code makes sense. If the cut-off doesn't require a manual reset, the smoke detector could cut off the fan, only to have it start up again when the detector burned up in the fire.

[rubytue]

Have you tried looking around online for the specific relay? will either of these work:
Firex 501 Carbon Monoxide Relay Module
FireX 501 - Multi-Function Relay Module Smoke & CO Alarms :: Baldor Motors,Electric Motors,dc motors,Tools,Baldor, Firex,Smoke Alarm,Milwaukee,Delta ::

Both say they are compatible with the 12000.

Hubby (the electrician) says it sounds like you are on the right path, so he isn't sure what to tell you. He said to make sure the relay is set up to bypass the remote control. Other than that, he is stumped (given what he knows from here). Hopefully someone else will come along with ideas.

[hcgCali]

Tambe, are your smoke and Co2 alarms the Firex 12000? Because when I searched for the relay switch, I found this, which says the alarms were recalled . Firex - Recall - Distributor FAQs

If yours are one of the recalled numbers, they will exchange them for a new model, which may solve your relay switch problem and you won't have any out-of-pocket for replacing the alarms.

[tambre]

Originally Posted by hcgCali

Tambe, are your smoke and Co2 alarms the Firex 12000? Because when I searched for the relay switch, I found this, which says the alarms were recalled . Firex - Recall - Distributor FAQs

If yours are one of the recalled numbers, they will exchange them for a new model, which may solve your relay switch problem and you won't have any out-of-pocket for replacing the alarms.

Not sure...hope this is the problem. Interesting that the people at FireX didn't mention this to the electrician when he called. We had some hardwired/battery backup units put into an addition 10 years ago, and then we remodeled over the last two years. I guess we'll have to pull one down and see. I'll have my hubby read the information and talk to the electrician about it. Great information, thanks! Tambre

[tambre]

Originally Posted by harry chickpea

A fuseable link or high temp cutoff has been the common way to handle stuff like this. Be sure you are reading the code correctly. If it is the code, you could ask at the fire department if they have any recommended devices, or if you could see some installations that have been done right. Personally, I wonder whether such a code makes sense. If the cut-off doesn't require a manual reset, the smoke detector could cut off the fan, only to have it start up again when the detector burned up in the fire.

Hi Harry,

The building inspector mentioned this code when he was inspecting the framing. Good point about the manual reset! Thanks. Tambre

[tambre]

Originally Posted by rubytue

Have you tried looking around online for the specific relay? will either of these work:
Firex 501 Carbon Monoxide Relay Module
FireX 501 - Multi-Function Relay Module Smoke & CO Alarms :: Baldor Motors,Electric Motors,dc motors,Tools,Baldor, Firex,Smoke Alarm,Milwaukee,Delta ::

Both say they are compatible with the 12000.

Hubby (the electrician) says it sounds like you are on the right path, so he isn't sure what to tell you. He said to make sure the relay is set up to bypass the remote control. Other than that, he is stumped (given what he knows from here). Hopefully someone else will come along with ideas.

Hi rubytue,
Thanks for your nice links. The Firex 501 Multi-function relay sure sounds like it should work, but doesn't seem to want to! Maybe we have the smoke detectors that are not compatible, such as the ones with the orange wires. I give electricians alot of credit, this is like a total mystery!

[Cosmic]

Are you sure the smoke detection system is required to operate / shutdown the house ventilation system???

The first place to start is with the house fan. What does it's instruction book say? Duh, don't tell us, you don't have the instruction book.

A lot of these fans have a high temp cut out switch already installed. Does this one, maybe it is already wired in? This is very common for all attic fans to have it, A whole house fan should fall under the same general category. Your instruction book for the fan should address the problem and maybe even give a wiring diagram and model number / place to order a temp cut out if you wish to install one. I am guessing it already has one installed. This is a general code requirement in most places, ventilation type fans should shut down on high temperature sensing to prevent feeding air into a fire. Nothing about shutting down on smoke sensing that I know of.

How big is this house fan? What is its ratings?

Looked at my fire alarm book. Those relays in that type of system only are rated at 5 Amp / AC. Better than most sensors, you will find. But I don't think that is the intended purpose of this type relay. It is for operating additional alarming, operating very light load type devices, like vents, etc.

This entire affair sounds very confused. Probably why nobody wants to touch your problem. Legal liability for the few dollars you can make. The requirement should be shutdown on high temperature sensing only.

Is it wired from a wall switch with a pilot light built in? Typically how it is done. A wall switch is turned on, pilot light shows the running status, a thermostat causes the fan to start / stop. Your high temp cut out switch contacts would be wired in series with the control power through the switch. Ideally the switch is a simple design with no power required to operate it directly. Mechanically opens the contacts on high temp. Lots of sensors can be found, general problem is their contact ratings are low, can work if an isolating relay is used, just makes things more complicated. Must be fail safe, lost of power stops the fan.

Also this code is requiring the fan be operated via the smoke alarm system directly is that correct? Are you saying having high temperature sensing built into the fan itself is not good enough. Some smoke detector systems do have an aux contact available from the sensors themselves, again it will probably be very low rated. Having the fan run during the fire can be good. Initially during the smoke phase, it helps clear the smoke and allows good vision to escape. Should shut down only on high temperature sensing, not smoke detection, is everybody on the same page? Some fire departments actually bring a big fan and use it to clear smoke during an entry. Strange business this code stuff.

I would be clear about what is actually required. Sounds like more smoke than light in all this code stuff. Makes little sense. Is actually creating more danger than helping if the fan is shutting down on smoke detection rather than actual temperature sensing. Do you have local code nuts at work or is the actual purpose of what is being attempted here confused too. Sure not how I would set up my house. Sounds like some of those Real Estate "Experts" are involved and some of the wacko stuff they typically demand.

[tambre]

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[tambre]

here's the last relay we ordered:



Firex 501 Multi-Function Relay Module

Part#: 351-00006-171A

Manufacturer Part#: 501

(Qty: 1 x $24.42)