Cabinet Refacing - looking for firsthand experiences (granite, hot water heater, refinish)

[desertsun41]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

Duh, all the cabinet refacing dudes that have the fancy ads are basically amateurs, pretty high priced ones at that.

You want to take this approach.

Remove the face frame from the base cabinets. Redo all the doors, drawer fronts and frame. Repair the carcass / framing as necessary. Example if under the sink is rotted out it can be relined in place. Replace hardware as necessary. That way your counter can stay in place and you should get the lowest cost. Lots of folks can handle making up the new fancy face frame with a new shiny look.

For the cabinets you can do the same or replace totally. I've even pulled out the cabinets and rehab'd them. Can get the carcass professional stripped and just refinish them. Replace the doors and frame or redo them. Some cabinet shops probably do rehab's. If you got good solid quality wood it can just be reworked to look like new. Is pretty inexpensive. If it is crap quality thru out then normally a replace is more cost effective. Some places can veneer over decent quality materials with whatever of your choice. In the shop you get a better job overall. It is not very expensive, the materials are nominal, usually you are paying more for a labor rate.

I just redid my kitchen. Same general approach. Rehab'd all the cabinets by grinding them down and refinishing. Cabinet boxes stayed in place. Same with base cabinets only they were removed to do the rest of the room, floors, etc. Base cabinets were just repaired. Under the sink cabinet was completely relined as it had a bit of rot. All new hinges thru out.

Replaced the counter, new back splash with tile, custom wood trim out, new stainless sink, faucet, etc. My total cost, me doing all the work less than a $100.

You can buy the doors and drawer fronts as surplus in many places. I've seen them local for like a few dollars each. Solid maple for the most part. Or most good cabinet shops will have access to good materials for fair prices. Or they can make their own. I've even been able to find excellent hardware for like a buck. Pair of hinges a buck, fancy pulls a buck. Brand new in the bag, far better quality than the big box stores. you got to look around. There are surplus and discount building supply places. Check what is available in your area. Don't pay retail. If you can supply the parts to a cabinet shop you can save a bundle.

Difficult to guess a price for a quality make over from a decent contractor but surely nothing like $9200. Not even remotely close. It pays to know what you are doing and shop around for materials and who can do a fair job. Couple of thousand should be way overkill if you are not monkeying with the counter, sink, plumbing or backsplash. The more you can supply to a cabinet shop as next to nothing the more you save.

There may even be guys who specialize in rehab'n takeouts. Or they built custom using recyled materials. Should be a few of those type guys you can find. Most bigger cities will have them. Most cabinet shops give a pretty good deal. You got to ask around, might not be a big splashy ad in the Yellow Pages. Some of these guys operate low under the radar, their customers are other contractors. Got to ask around. Just labor, my guess something in the $1500 range would be a good number, that is more than a week in manhours, labor should be in the $20 - 30 hour range. The more you can control the material side, the more you should save. Any reasonable dude should be able to do the on site work in a day, once the materials are available to be installed.

I quite often agree with you. I never agree with your "put down" attitude towards others. I passed by your post and had to come back.

You keep saying to give your local cabinet shop your bargain bought parts so they can do a less expensive job for you. There is not a cabinet shop on the face of the earth, or any other trade, store, repair shop, contractor who will do this. Never in the history of the world has anyone done this. If some one brought a box of parts to me and asked to install/repair/remodel for them I would just politely say no.

You kept on saying to strip down doors and faces. 90% of all cabinets have melamine boxes. Only the face and doors are real wood. You can not sand melamine. Thats why I said to skin it. No mess no fuss. And even if it was all stripable, what handyman knows how to stain and poly it properly? I have said dozens of times that YOU CAN NOT PAINT CABINETS so that is not an option.

You keep saying to buy doors and drawer faces as surplus. Do you know what surplus is? Surplus is extras, odd lots, discontinued, damaged, mistakes, bad colors and multiple mixed products. Your chances of finding all the exact sizes to fit your existing doors and drawer faces are zero. You have a better chance of hitting the pick 6 lotto 7 consecutive nights in a row.

Why would anyone pull out a cabinet to have dipped or stripped? As I said before, only the face and doors/drawer faces are wood. You cant strip melamine. Besides what advantage is it? 80% of the total cost of any cabinet is in the face frame and doors/drawer faces. In other words all the money is in the face and doors. While the remaining 20% of cost is the entire box carcus. And only the end exposed cabinets needs the side finished anyway.

You found maple doors for a few dollars? No. Just no. First off very very few cabinet shops make their own doors. It is another trade all together. In fact in the past 30 years I may have only came across 3 cabinet shops that I can remember who made their own doors. I personally buy doors from Decoritive Specialties in Cali. A random example for a 16" X 34" common sized raised panel door is about $60 with my volume cost pricing. Not too bad but far from your few dollar estimate. In cherry this door will be $80 and oak it would be $50. And since they are raw they still have to be finished !

And finally......you DO NOT "grind down" cabinets. Personally we use sand paper. This is fine woodworking here. Not rough framing or metal working. Today people want Ethan Allen Furniture quality cabinets. Its not just a box with a door to put things in anymore and it's appearance be damned.

But I do agree with you on one thing. DO NOT PAY RETAIL !!!!

[pennquaker09]

Resurfacing, to me, is a complete waste of money.

[Cosmic]

Well I think you all totally missed the point. I was not suggesting to Ms. Stala that she do the work herself. There is another way to think about the entire process. Duh, how do you get quality, something close to what you want and still get the best price? Many ways to skin the cat. But in order to have the best price, you must have the lowest possible cost structure. Cannot remotely start to do that with the Standard Methods. It is all about how many zeroes you wish to write in your check book.

To get the best price, highest quality and best results it helps to Think Out the Box. Lowest costs, like close to zip, gives the best final price, not a subject for debate. You can not have tons of peeps in the loop and be paying them all a paycheck.

Can be done without the person pounding a nail or any construction, it is more about planning, material procurement, management and keeping your cost structure in the weeds. Part of it is dealing with the right peeps.

Seems like the DesertSun needs to circulate more.

We shall go through the basics.

Originally Posted by desertsun41

You keep saying to give your local cabinet shop your bargain bought parts so they can do a less expensive job for you. There is not a cabinet shop on the face of the earth, or any other trade, store, repair shop, contractor who will do this. Never in the history of the world has anyone done this. If some one brought a box of parts to me and asked to install/repair/remodel for them I would just politely say no.

Seems like there is a huge World out there you have never experienced. There are all sorts of cabinet shops who will do exactly what I say, if you have a very well organized, pre-purchased project and just wanted them to put it together. Never in the history of the world has anyone done this. Well not exactly, I have done it for peeps who wanted it like so. Was a bit of discussion, advice, consent, making a project happen with materials they supplied. Never say never.

In fact you fail to realize all projects have this admin, material purchase phase that is not exactly simulating for the contractor. Yes, some do use it as a profit center but it does not have to be so.

There is this huge World of getting stuff for damn near nothing to make a particular project possible to get a paying job. All sorts of stuff happens, how you can make money, salvage, surplus, recycling, buying materials on the cheap, project works primary on paying for labor. You do need to get around more.

In fact I will digress, in Waltham, MA there was this old industrial section where an old building were turned in a ton of small business type shops under one roof. You name it, was probably there. Custom doors, cabinets, furniture, sign making shops, sewing stuff, sail making on and on. You could walk in and and make a deal with any of them. I did, bought, sold, traded, anything I needed. There was no wrong way to do it, we had to both make a profit. Everybody was extremely flexible, what do you need and you say never in this World. Duh, they all say politely YES, a buck is a buck.

Originally Posted by desertsun41

You kept on saying to strip down doors and faces. 90% of all cabinets have melamine boxes. Only the face and doors are real wood. You can not sand melamine. Thats why I said to skin it. No mess no fuss. And even if it was all stripable, what handyman knows how to stain and poly it properly? I have said dozens of times that YOU CAN NOT PAINT CABINETS so that is not an option.

Duh, 90% of all cabinets do not have melamine boxes. I have seen it all. Real wood, metal cabinets (New England was loaded with metal cabinets, lots of them in Ohio). Quality plywood boxes, pressed board crap, on and on. Some can be recyled, some is firewood, some you can sell on the salvage market, some you trash. I know of no hard fast rule about what to expect. Rarely did we just bust up old cabinets. Somehow there was a buck in the critters. Many folks wanted them for storage in sheds, garages, etc. The doors were prime recycle materials if of any quality.

Done my share of rehab on old cabinets. Not everything got scrapped, you have to see it, talk it thru, understand how much they can afford, weigh various options. You can make a job out of nothing. I've done it a zillion different ways, hopefully put a smile on their face and a buck in my pocket.

Originally Posted by desertsun41

You keep saying to buy doors and drawer faces as surplus. Do you know what surplus is? Surplus is extras, odd lots, discontinued, damaged, mistakes, bad colors and multiple mixed products. Your chances of finding all the exact sizes to fit your existing doors and drawer faces are zero. You have a better chance of hitting the pick 6 lotto 7 consecutive nights in a row.

Yes, I know exactly what surplus is. Been buying it for many years. Yours is not quite the correct view. In fact a year or so ago I saw truckloads of surplus cabinets. Some new in boxes, finished, perfect, SURPLUS. Some with out finish, fully assembled, boxes and boxes of parts, all new, all perfect. For close to zip, as in Nada. Sold out like hot cakes.

Surplus can be an huge mixed bag. Can be everything under the sun. More like a flea market, deals of a lifetime possible. The downside being they might not have exactly what you want at the time, might not be enough of a particular product to satisfy your needs, some parts may be missing. Some is perfect in boxes with all documentation. The joy can be it can be had for pennies on the dollar. If you ain't been there don't knock it, don't know what you are missing.

Originally Posted by desertsun41

Why would anyone pull out a cabinet to have dipped or stripped? As I said before, only the face and doors/drawer faces are wood. You cant strip melamine. Besides what advantage is it? 80% of the total cost of any cabinet is in the face frame and doors/drawer faces. In other words all the money is in the face and doors. While the remaining 20% of cost is the entire box carcus. And only the end exposed cabinets needs the side finished anyway.

Duh, the World does not work that way. Not ALL cabinets are melamine. Only in 5 old year suburbs, you do have to get out more. I've seen cabinets built out of wood from the primary forests, wood hundreds of years old, would I dip and strip it, bet your booties. Also run off with it. Prime recycle materials, folks pay very good money for the good stuff.

Seen folks in the Boston area strip out hundred years old wood and replace it with "Modern Crap". Duh, I sure cruised that neighborhood on garbage day.

Originally Posted by desertsun41

You found maple doors for a few dollars? No. Just no. First off very very few cabinet shops make their own doors. It is another trade all together. In fact in the past 30 years I may have only came across 3 cabinet shops that I can remember who made their own doors. I personally buy doors from Decoritive Specialties in Cali. A random example for a 16" X 34" common sized raised panel door is about $60 with my volume cost pricing. Not too bad but far from your few dollar estimate. In cherry this door will be $80 and oak it would be $50. And since they are raw they still have to be finished !

Yep, wild but true, the real McCoy. Not a defect in the bunch. Also lots of shops make their own parts. Especially true in my area of the World. Lots of small shops around that are subs making Lord knows whatever. We are in the timber Heaven. Trucks go pass my house every day with prime hardwoods. Duh, even many local sawmills, you can make the tree in your backyard into cabinets. You are way, way too Standard in the Thinking Dept. Nothing costs that much around here. Lots of Amish, with their own sawmills. You figure it out, costs can be squat.

Originally Posted by desertsun41

And finally......you DO NOT "grind down" cabinets. Personally we use sand paper. This is fine woodworking here. Not rough framing or metal working. Today people want Ethan Allen Furniture quality cabinets. Its not just a box with a door to put things in anymore and it's appearance be damned.

In fact "We" do not use sandpaper to do the "Grinding". My present house cabinets were a veneer cover. Old crap varish, so the finish was cut with alcohol and then sanded with a drywall screen. Sandpaper cuts wood a drywall screen does not and gives a perfect surface to refinish. You tailor projects to needs.

Why did I waste this effort???

Lots of threads whining about how they need a new kitchen and want something for nothing. Either you write a check with lots of zeros or you understand the World my way. I did an entire make over of a humble kitchen for squat. Basic work total make over, like $400. I just refigured the appliances, maybe $800. Bought them like everything else, new, out of the box for as lil as possible. It all can be done but you must understand the basics of how to put various pieces together and especially how to purchase materials, planning, more planning, execution of a game plan.

Not that you even have to actually do the physical work. You have to be in charge and control the process. A year or so ago I went to a picnic, folks who do remodeling, rehab's and that sort of stuff. Folks from PA, WV, Ohio Valley. Very interesting to talk to them. One particular interesting young lady from Pittsburg who was into buying, rehabing houses, selling, making her own dream place. She could not bang a nail but very sharp in how to put together the process to make it all happen. It is the ability to think, organize, plan, make all the pieces work that is important. Especially how do you get the materials for next to nothing, make the schedules and budgets work, etc. A kitchen is almost a kids project compared to what she was doing and understood it all perfectly. Very, very saavy. Traded a lot of good info.

Here is a bit of what I am talking about. I bought a shack and rehab'd. Quality job, something like 10K out of pocket to do it. Nobody else could possibly touch this effort, most folks would be 40 - 50 - 60 thousand. It was done by total planning, budget control getting it all for next to nothing. There are principles involved. You basically plan out the project, attempt to purchase all the supporting materials over some time frame by understanding how they can be obtained outside of normal channels, stores, etc. It is all out there if you know where to look.

So in future my plans are to find some land and build a new house. In that process I have planned out in my head what I might need and attempt to find and purchase as much of it as possible now for next to nothing. Below is a small taste of how that process works. I have various sources I can plug into to know where the bargains might be. The drift is super quality for damn near nothing, I will take it off your hands. Any kitchen project can be done in your backyard, using the local suppliers, if you exercise discipline and understand how to do it. A lot of these threads strike me as whining and wanting a luxury car for the price of a VW. Unwilling or unable to do the effort it takes to get it at a bargain. I want it, my way for nothing without any real effort to make it happen on my part.


Just think you could have bought everything in this box for $50. This was the typical bargain run. Find anything needed for a house, package the purchase to get the most value. This was grab a bunch of stuff, marked whatever, put it in a box, offer a fixed sum. This box of goodies was bought for like $50. Was electronics, light switch plates, cabinet hardware for like 50 doors. Some of it I have already used in this rehab. It is possible to do this sort of thing if you explore any area and know what and why you are doing things.



Your typical heavy wall cast bronze junk I love, shame to get it for close to nothing, wish I could have gotten a ton more. Tried to bag first class light switch plates. Probably got them for an average of maybe 50 cents.



Duh, you mean I really had to pay all of 50 cents for these, plain highway robbery. I ignore the prices marked, go for purchasing a huge amount of stuff, bargain on what the total will be.



Ok, just a few pulls, hinges, electronics, switch plates, on and on. Your typical box at surplus. I look for quality. These probably retail for over $10 each, the big box stores didn't even have a lot of these plates to compare, crap stuff for big bucks. Whole box of stuff for next to nothing, all new, in original paks. This was surplus from some lumber yard that went belly up.



Shame it is all new and in a pak.



Another deal done gone good. Solid vinyl siding for next to squat. Another typical deal where I found super value. Solid vinyl that is probably a commerical grade siding. Stands are things I am making. Tops are the cutout slug from the new sink I put in the kitchen counter, bottom shelf is a piece of the paneling I gutted out of the living room, rest is out of the scrap box. Two pieces of furniture for next to squat. Waste not, want not.

[desertsun41]

Duh there is no way you can sell a 30 year veteran who has won many awards for fine wooworking excellence with hand made pieces in a museum to build like you do. My work can be viewed in Fine Woodworking Magazine. I teach fine woodworking in night college 2 nights a week. A member of Nevada, New Jersey and soon Texas Woodworkers Guild. The finest craftsmen on earth.

I have designed and installed kitchens, libraries, TV centers and Offices to the most famous people in America. Dozens of them. NFL players, MLB players, Rock Stars (many), Boxers who bite ears off, a Sultan of Brunei, famous Comedian, the singer of the theme from the Titanic, politicians you know, Newscasters, the list goes on.

You can buy those junk recycled and used parts if you wish. I hope you dont put them in peoples homes. What you do in your home is only your business.

We both use different quality materials. These are a few of my masterpieces. One sits in a home owned by some one who brought us an album called Toys in the Attic.

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by desertsun41

Duh there is no way you can sell a 30 year veteran who has won many awards for fine wooworking excellence with hand made pieces in a museum to build like you do. My work can be viewed in Fine Woodworking Magazine. I teach fine woodworking in night college 2 nights a week. A member of Nevada, New Jersey and soon Texas Woodworkers Guild. The finest craftsmen on earth.

I have designed and installed kitchens, libraries, TV centers and Offices to the most famous people in America. Dozens of them. NFL players, MLB players, Rock Stars (many), Boxers who bite ears off, a Sultan of Brunei, famous Comedian, the singer of the theme from the Titanic, politicians you know, Newscasters, the list goes on.

You can buy those junk recycled and used parts if you wish. I hope you dont put them in peoples homes. What you do in your home is only your business.

We both use different quality materials. These are a few of my masterpieces. One sits in a home owned by some one who brought us an album called Toys in the Attic.

Well I am not impressed. What did you do to solve Ms. Starla need for a impressive kitchen for say $1500?

If you give me a few bucks I can turn out all the eye poping junk a fellow might want. I would mix in a lot of metals and other materials. Yeah, lets do some steamed wood bending.

In fact if I had to choose, I know some folks who do recycled materials that I would far prefer to that type of eyewash.

Just for the record I ain't all that impressed by "famous peeps" either, most them are probably on drugs.

This is about how to make it happen for Normal Peeps. Hopefully without borrowing more money.

H,mmmm who decides who the finest craftmen on Earth???? A lot of it ain't all about glamor or claims. The best craftmen are probably already dead. Do it with their tools and see what you can build.

Get back to the subject of how to get a 50K kitchen for $500.

[desertsun41]

I doubt anyone would even let you in their home with your attitude. Duh.

I counted how many times you said "duh" in your posts. I think it's up to 21 now. Do you say "duh" to your customers or is it just us here?

Im not impressed with your pictures of garage sale and fle market items you picked up for 50 cents. In fact it is an insult to any tradesman who takes pride in their work. Some of us are artists and some of us are butchers.

I do believe your Massachusetts Board of Building Regulations and Standards forbid doing what you do. I do not believe you can get your HIC or CSL doing what you do. Are you licensed?

Mass. HIC does have a handyman designation allowing low price charged caps. I suspect you can stay under those caps using garage sale and flee market materials as long as you inform customers what they are buying. Otherwise it is fraud.

[World Citizen]

o.k., you two guys.... I've learned from both of you over the past months.

Both of you are excellent sources of information. Desert, you tend to be toward the "buy new" market and are generally higher end. Cosmic really knows how to do things and and he also knows how you can sometimes cut costs.

In my current situation, I'm not replacing my kitchen cabinets. I've simply got too many other projects on my plate that are more pressing. The previous owner put new (but cheap and ugly) countertops on the original kitchen cabinets and left me with new brushed nickel hardware that I can use. While these cabinets (to me) aren't worth even the time spent stripping them and painting them... that's what I'm going to do. And, I've purchased a 24" pantry which adds more storage which I will paint to match the existing cabinets.

Desert Sun, you CAN Paint Kitchen Cabinets!

I grew up in a house that was actually a Parade of Homes house... decorated by Ethan Allen decorators. My mother's cabinets were painted as long as I can remember.... and, that was before everything was done with a laminated finish. While my mother did not have my taste in kitchens, her kitchen was nice. Given my background, I am convinced that paint on kitchen cabinets will hold up if you take your time and do it right.

One more thing,... Desert Sun, the last two home magazines that I received were FULL of painted cabinets. It's never out of style. It's a matter of personal taste.

Much love to both of you... and, thanks again Cosmic for your advice on that other project. I finished my surface drain project yesterday!

[pennquaker09]

Painted kitchen cabinets will hold up, anyone saying otherwise is full of it.

[desertsun41]

Originally Posted by World Citizen

o.k., you two guys.... I've learned from both of you over the past months.

Both of you are excellent sources of information. Desert, you tend to be toward the "buy new" market and are generally higher end. Cosmic really knows how to do things and and he also knows how you can sometimes cut costs.

In my current situation, I'm not replacing my kitchen cabinets. I've simply got too many other projects on my plate that are more pressing. The previous owner put new (but cheap and ugly) countertops on the original kitchen cabinets and left me with new brushed nickel hardware that I can use. While these cabinets (to me) aren't worth even the time spent stripping them and painting them... that's what I'm going to do. And, I've purchased a 24" pantry which adds more storage which I will paint to match the existing cabinets.

Desert Sun, you CAN Paint Kitchen Cabinets!

I grew up in a house that was actually a Parade of Homes house... decorated by Ethan Allen decorators. My mother's cabinets were painted as long as I can remember.... and, that was before everything was done with a laminated finish. While my mother did not have my taste in kitchens, her kitchen was nice. Given my background, I am convinced that paint on kitchen cabinets will hold up if you take your time and do it right.

One more thing,... Desert Sun, the last two home magazines that I received were FULL of painted cabinets. It's never out of style. It's a matter of personal taste.

Much love to both of you... and, thanks again Cosmic for your advice on that other project. I finished my surface drain project yesterday!

I like your attitude. And thanks for the compliment.

When I say you can not paint cabinets, I mean you can but what it looks like is another story. When you see kitchens with a painted look in a magazine it is normally baked on enamel with 3 coats of clear finish. When I hear people say paint it usually means using a brush and water based paints bought at the big box store. Nothing can be more ugly then that. At least with an oil based paint the brush marks will for the most part disapear. I never said painted dont hold up. They would probably last for 30 years. But that is 30 years of having to look at that ugly finish with all the brush marks.

Im not so much against solid painted colors. I have a beautiful solid cream color kitchen display in my showroom. It has amber/yellow glass doors and a granite countertop that is also (darker) cream with black marblized swirls. As you walk in the door this display is the first one to hit you in the face and stops people dead in their tracks. But in all honesty I have sold that color only 2 times this year. Everyone says wow but no one wants it.

Anyway....I hear ya World Citizen. I know everyone has a budget. Hope whatever you read here helps you out to some degree.

Good luck

[World Citizen]

Originally Posted by desertsun41

I like your attitude. And thanks for the compliment.

When I say you can not paint cabinets, I mean you can but what it looks like is another story. When you see kitchens with a painted look in a magazine it is normally baked on enamel with 3 coats of clear finish. When I hear people say paint it usually means using a brush and water based paints bought at the big box store. Nothing can be more ugly then that. At least with an oil based paint the brush marks will for the most part disapear. I never said painted dont hold up. They would probably last for 30 years. But that is 30 years of having to look at that ugly finish with all the brush marks.

Im not so much against solid painted colors. I have a beautiful solid cream color kitchen display in my showroom. It has amber/yellow glass doors and a granite countertop that is also (darker) cream with black marblized swirls. As you walk in the door this display is the first one to hit you in the face and stops people dead in their tracks. But in all honesty I have sold that color only 2 times this year. Everyone says wow but no one wants it.

Anyway....I hear ya World Citizen. I know everyone has a budget. Hope whatever you read here helps you out to some degree.

Good luck

I know what you mean about bad paint jobs. Someone told me about some awesome self-leveling cabinet paint in another thread. And, now you've told me about 3 coats of clear coat... if that's not a good enough finish.

I've moved into a house where someone did a horrible job of painting the cabinets. Much worse than brush marks... it looks like they used a regular 3/8" nap roller.
YOU would REALLY love their paint job!!! So, I've even purchased a heat gun stripper... and I'm stripping them completely before painting them to get rid of all of their handiwork and get a solid surface. I've really got champagne taste -- and... I've certainly learned how to obtain my taste for a lot less since leaving home!

And, fyi, I'm planning to paint my cabinets cream -- hopefully I'll get a look similar to your showroom model!~

But... back to the OP's question.... I would NEVER reface her cabinets because it sounds like they must be poorly made. And, $9200 would buy some NICE new cabinets in a small kitchen. You gave her some awesome advice in your first post... too bad you're not nearby and she could hire you!

Any way.... both of you are awesome and I really enjoy your posts so keep them coming!