Plastic Pipes? (how much, glass, costs, building)

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by DubbleT

I just hate to interrupt a good argument, but I have a silly question to ask. I just had my pipes replaced with PEX and my water tastes/smells, ick, like plastic. It's only been a few days so I'm hoping it goes away. It will, won't it? Would running the faucets for a while help?

It was not an argument. Learned discussion is more like it.

You do not say what the former material was. Not that old Killer copper was it?

A couple of things may be in play. Copper has another characteristic not mentioned in all of the prior discussion. It has the ability to be germicidal or disinfect water stored or passing thru it. In doing so it probably does affect the taste of water. So do the metals brass and silver have the same properties. Silver being the best. Many storage tanks in critical applications have copper or silver linings to use these properties. In some regards long term storage has the ability to further purify water after being added to a storage tank. There are some big fancy names for these affects.

So water stored in copper pipes will probably have a different taste. All sorts of critters are either killed or unable to grow. Anything having some type of plant life characteristic probably affects taste. Dissolved gases affect water taste. So do minerals.

Most types of plastic also add some type of taste factor to water stored in them. It may be more strong and then fade. You may aquire a taste for it after awhile and notice it less. Same for many city water systems, they taste different but after a while, you notice them less.

It does seem strange tho that you can notice a smell. Usually not that strong. One assumption here is only your water line material changed, all other factors are the same.

In your case only time will tell. You could try running enough water to flush the section of PEX and see if that makes a difference in the short term. In general I do not like liquids stored in plastic, even food grade plastic which are not supposed to add any tastes or nasty effects. I prefer glass storage containers.

I sure hope PEX does not turn out to have some bad characteristic. Gees, some of these folks will have a field day claiming it will kill you, or maybe maim the taste buds. I'm not sure PEX was developed specifically for potable water applications or if it started being used because it was available. I suspect the issue of taste might not have been addressed as a design feature.

I would flush the lines good for the next few days before drinking any of it and see if the issue goes away. Tho in a lot of them other type plastic lines I can definitely taste it. Good old Killer Copper ain't all that bad afterall.

[DubbleT]

Not killer copper no, just gunky galvanized, lol. Is it true that new copper pipes now days actually have little copper in them? My plumber said they were mostly nickel and cheap metals, prone to pinhole leaks. He preferred not to use it.

Maybe I'm overly sensitive, but with the PEX, it tastes like drinking from a cheap garden hose, just nasty. I don't like drinking from plastic cups or pitchers either, because of the taste. Much prefer glass.
The plastic smell is not strong, but when my nose is in my glass it's definitely noticeable and not at all appealing.
Guess I'll give it a few more days. If it doesn't go away maybe I'll invest in one of those water filtration things.

BTW my vote for worst tasting city water goes to Indianapolis. The sulphur smell kills me.

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by DubbleT

Not killer copper no, just gunky galvanized, lol. Is it true that new copper pipes now days actually have little copper in them? My plumber said they were mostly nickel and cheap metals, prone to pinhole leaks. He preferred not to use it.

BTW my vote for worst tasting city water goes to Indianapolis. The sulphur smell kills me.

Naw...... That is not true. Copper tubing is about the same as it always was. It comes in different grades/weights/ thickness. Type K is the heavy grade stuff, then L and finally M. M is pretty light weight and I usually never use it. Sounds like your boy used to much M type, went cheap for too many peeps in the past. Got to be especially careful putting that grade behind walls. It can be a problem.

The difference today is the old style heavy brass type fittings are much harder to find. The typical fitting in most of the hardware / big box stores are cheap junk, a pressed copper type fitting, supposely K weight but I doubt it.

Real problem with anything copper is it is not cheap. Has come down a bit in price.

You might be used to that solid iron diet out of that old galvy. Many of the water systems don't taste good. I always thought NYC was crap. My present system is definitely nothing like spring water but I am slowing getting used to it. Boston had good tasting water, about the only thing left good in that town. Most big cities have flat tasting water.

This is not good for all the PEX guys if it tastes like out a garden hose. Yuck, mine ain't that great coming out of Killer copper now, guess no PEX in my future.

[Gary Slusser]

Copper, silver, etc., is not biocidal; or a biocide. Meaning it/they do not kill bacteria. Some bacteria, especialy slime producing can cause pinholes in copper tubing; among many other causes.

bi·o·cide n. A chemical agent, such as a pesticide, that is capable of destroying living organisms.

Copper is biostatic, or bacteriostatic. Meaning it prevents the growth of bacteria.

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by Gary Slusser

Copper, silver, etc., is not biocidal; or a biocide. Meaning it/they do not kill bacteria. Some bacteria, especialy slime producing can cause pinholes in copper tubing; among many other causes.

bi·o·cide n. A chemical agent, such as a pesticide, that is capable of destroying living organisms.

Copper is biostatic, or bacteriostatic. Meaning it prevents the growth of bacteria.

Sweet Jesus, you ain't much of a water expert guy. Copper is a full blooded Killer, smacks them germs dead. Even the EPA now sezs so.

All that oligodynamic stuff at work. There is another big long fancy name I forget. Some nurses probably know it. And no again, copper will kill slime, one of the reasons it is used in ships water systems. You got to get around more. Silver is even better.

Here is a snip out of Wikipedia. They are using the word KILLER, plain cold blooded killer for germs and nasty stuff. Below that is a link to using it to kill germs on door knobs in hospitals.

They are also starting to make clothes with copper in them. Socks that you don't have to wash and have no oders. Real good stuff.

Quit fighting this so much. We got a couple thousand years being around copper. It is your buddy, won't hurt you.

Snip from Wikipedia


Copper is germicidal, via the oligodynamic effect. For example, brass doorknobs disinfect themselves of many bacteria within a period of eight hours.[26] Antimicrobial properties of copper are effective against MRSA,[27] Escherichia coliHYPERLINK \l "cite_note-pmid16751537-27"[28] and other pathogens.[29]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-pmid17567632-29"[30]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-pmid17259354-30"[31] In colder temperature, longer time is required to kill bacteria.

Copper has the intrinsic ability to kill a variety of potentially harmful pathogens. On February 29, 2008, the United States EPA registered 275 alloys, containing greater than 65% nominal copper content, as antimicrobial materials[32]. Registered alloys include pure copper, an assortment of brasses and bronzes, and additional alloys. EPA-sanctioned tests using Good Laboratory Practices were conducted in order to obtain several antimicrobial claims valid against: methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), Enterobacter aerogenes, Escherichia coli O157: H7 and Pseudomonas aeruginosa. The EPA registration allows the manufacturers of these copper alloys to legally make public health claims as to the health effects of these materials. Several of the aforementioned bacteria are responsible for a large portion of the nearly two million hospital-acquired infections contracted each year in the United States[33]. Frequently touched surfaces in hospitals and public facilities harbor bacteria and increase the risk for contracting infections. Covering touch surfaces with copper alloys can help reduce microbial contamination associated with hospital-acquired-infections on these surfaces.


CNW Group | ASKLEPIOS KLINIKEN | Copper Eliminates Resistant Hospital Germs in a Worldwide Field Test[

[Gary Slusser]

Yes, as I said; Copper is biostatic, or bacteriostatic. Meaning it prevents the growth of bacteria.

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by Gary Slusser

Yes, as I said; Copper is biostatic, or
bacteriostatic. Meaning it prevents the growth of bacteria.

They have been doing this stuff for years and years. Using metals that kills all sorts of stuff. Killer copper, zinc, bronzes, silver as coating in water storage tanks. All sorts of way to do. Metal flashed, bake on coatings, electro-coatings even types of paint. They want the real Killer stuff.

There ain't no slime in there either, I've seen it. Puppies clean as hound's teeth. I never heard of slime naw'n thru anything, old ship's hulls had that Killer copper on them and even them barncle fellows could not naw thru it. Why are you so, so against copper, what did it ever do to you????

The old timers used to throw a few silver dollars in their water barrels. Don't you know all this stuff???????

You can use just about anything a body can get as your water supply pipes. Bamboo or even that foul tasting plastic crap. Probably ain't going to kill you. Even all that lead did not get me. I just followed the water company recommendation and took a full shower first thing in the morning before making the coffee. My real choice would be a type of metal flashed silver piping. If I hit the lottery am getting solid silver.

Read that part above, it don't say biocide nothing. It sezs Killer, as in total dead bugs.

[NVplumber]

I never heard of copper being a toxic danger when used for piping. I did know that it inhibited algae growth and such and I have used copper sulphate to treat sewer lines for years. Root killer ya know. In all the countless installations I have done with PEX I have not had a customer complain about a funny taste either. I have been up behind a few flipdicks on copper installs that had issues, these stemming from not wiping joints and using half a jar of flux for one fitting. I look at copper as signature work and scabby work BUGS me. The latter issues actually ate the fittings up and they started leaking.On another one it looked like whoever put the stuff together didn't bother to scuff the pipe at all before soldering and used copious amounts of flux and excessive heat to compensate for it. Judging by the piles of solder under the sweat points (on the vapor barrier) and the blackish greenish color of the joints this was my conclusion anyway. The water was a nice, pretty , foamy bluish green when I turned on the tap points. When I got water to flow anyway. The angle valves were plugged up as were the areators since the clown didn't bother to flush things first. Dirt , bits of solder, pieces of copper (since he made all his cuts with a hacksaw from the looks of things.) I suppose ingesting such things could prove hazardous. Yep, hiring unliscenced guys by the hour saves a bunch of money right?

[nhmaster]

And the great copper v Pex debate rages on with no end in site. Pex is here to stay. Like it or not, most plumbing companies have headed that direction because its fast and cheap and lord knows we all need more fast and cheap crap on the market. Is it better or worse is the real question, and like most things, it all depends on it use and installation. Yes, pex is for the most part, chemically inert although it is suceptable to chlorene which breaks it down and of course UV light which will also break down the chemical bond. Copper, on the other hand, is suceptable to acidic or caustic water conditions either of which will degrade the pipe from the inside out. Any arguments dealing with copper poisioning are specious at best especially when you do a percentage of folks effected, versus the number of houses and businesses piped with copper. Copper will break if it freezes. Pex holds up a bit better, but I have seen it freeze and break also. Pex is hard to hang straight and make look good, and it does not take kindly to nails but then neither does copper. But in the end, it all comes back to cost. Fast and cheap is where the trade is headed so fast and cheap it is.

[Gary Slusser]

Mod Cut

Anyone can look up the Lead and Copper Rules the EPA mandated many years ago.

Too much of either is a health concern to humans and pets and that fact is easily proven. If it is looked up, you'll find that newly constructed houses with copper tubing are exempted from testing for copper for the first 5 years after construction. The reason is they can't meet the EPA MCL (maximum contaminate level) for copper in potable water; in common everyday language, that means there is too much copper in the water to meet the standard.

Plumbers should know this stuff if they believe that plumbers "protect the health of the world" as they say they do.

They go on about how great copper is but pay absolutely no attention to the poor water quality it can create on a large scale because it is so popular and has been used for so many decades.

That reminds me of how long lead pipe was used, and is still used by many homeowners in a number of cities and on military bases because "it's too expensive to replace all those lead service lines". Chicago actually required it, lead pipe, for service lines to every house and other buildings until like 1987; it was "code".