Repair or change- plumbing question (floor, vinyl, heating, smell)

[Irma10]

Hello to everebody on this very useful and friendly forum,

We just purchased old (80 years or so) investment property, in a good shape, but all the heating is broken, mostly because it was bank owned, bad peformed winterization etc. Course, we got substantial discount on it.

Now the question appears what to do with heating, pipes damaged mostly at joints and these are old copper pipes. Our plumber said what this is good (about copper) and it is enough to change the joints to make the system working for another 5-10 years.
My question is if this will be enough for stable peformance of the system, I do not want renters to call me every winter for heating problems?
Or it is better to change all pipes to PVC? Would be more costly, I suppose.
Please, share your opinions about durability of both options.

[Cosmic]

Sort of unclear exactly what the problems were.

Is this a forced hot water heating system that froze and had pipe damage? Lots of times you will find the original job was poor and the pipes fail by pushing the fittings apart if they freeze. Either the parts were not cleaned enough, not enough flux used or not heated high enough / long enough. Sometimes the solder was not of good quality. They didn't always get it right in the olde dazes. A really good job should not happen, normally the copper tubing lines brust, failure is not normally at fittings.

Or are these cheap garbarge type fittings that fail with pin hole leaks. Not all fittings are the same. Today it is more difficult to get the quality heavy brass type fittings that were common a few years ago at the plumber type outlets. All those big box stores mostly carry junk pressed thin copper fittings, they will not have the same working life as the old ones.

If all the failures are mostly at the elbows I would have no problem just replacing them. Forced hot water heating systems have very long working life if originally done with quality materials and craftsmanship.

In a way you did not tell us enough, in enough detail to really judge what is going on.

[roosevelt]

The worst thing that ever happened to me after some 25 years was to have the copper hot water pipe under my cement floor (den) develop a pin hole. Hard to detect but I had an underground return air system and smelled mildew and looked into the culvert and saw water. My little kid said he heard pop corn and located the spot under the floor, which was carpeted. Sure enough, I put my ear to the floor and it sounded like pop corn popping. I opened the floor in a 12" circle and there was the leak. Fixed it, but 2 years later more leaks developed so I had the whole floor saw cut, some 18 feet for $175, a bargain. Replaced the entire pipe but did not put back in cement, I put inset wooden strips in the channel and 3/4" plywood on that so it would be flush and put the carpet back down. That way, it can always be fixed again cheap. The saw cut channel was about 8". Hope this helps someone.

[Cosmic]

Originally Posted by roosevelt

The worst thing that ever happened to me after some 25 years was to have the copper hot water pipe under my cement floor (den) develop a pin hole. Hard to detect but I had an underground return air system and smelled mildew and looked into the culvert and saw water. My little kid said he heard pop corn and located the spot under the floor, which was carpeted. Sure enough, I put my ear to the floor and it sounded like pop corn popping. I opened the floor in a 12" circle and there was the leak. Fixed it, but 2 years later more leaks developed so I had the whole floor saw cut, some 18 feet for $175, a bargain. Replaced the entire pipe but did not put back in cement, I put inset wooden strips in the channel and 3/4" plywood on that so it would be flush and put the carpet back down. That way, it can always be fixed again cheap. The saw cut channel was about 8". Hope this helps someone.

Normal copper tubing will fail in relatively short order if buried in any type of cement or concrete product. Was the basic problem in trying to use copper tubing in radiant under floor heating systems with lite weight concrete slabs. You can get a type of copper tubing that comes with a sort of protective vinyl jacket to protect it in harsh environments from corrision type damage. Never put copper in direct full contact with any cement product, especially never buried or directly embed it. Not even if just going thru a cement wall with out some type of protective jacket.

Could not tell from the OP, if those pipes were in contact with any cement product, did not sound like it.

[roosevelt]

Originally Posted by Cosmic

Normal copper tubing will fail in relatively short order if buried in any type of cement or concrete product. Was the basic problem in trying to use copper tubing in radiant under floor heating systems with lite weight concrete slabs. You can get a type of copper tubing that comes with a sort of protective vinyl jacket to protect it in harsh environments from corrision type damage. Never put copper in direct full contact with any cement product, especially never buried or directly embed it. Not even if just going thru a cement wall with out some type of protective jacket.

Could not tell from the OP, if those pipes were in contact with any cement product, did not sound like it.

The copper pipe was about 5 inches below the cement floor in sand. I did put a vinyl sleeve on the new pipe and used silver solder.

[Irma10]

Thanks a lot, Cosmic specially,for professional advice!

Originally Posted by Cosmic

Is this a forced hot water heating system that froze and had pipe damage? Either the parts were not cleaned enough, not enough flux used or not heated high enough / long enough.

Or are these cheap garbarge type fittings that fail with pin hole leaks. Not all fittings are the same. Today it is more difficult to get the quality heavy brass type fittings that were common a few years ago at the plumber type outlets.

It could be sort of both- poor job together with no quality material. So I could be saved by changing only broken elbows. What would you recommend to look for quality fittings?

[Cosmic]

If the elbows popped they are junk. Does not normally happen.

I would just replace them, get rid of all the leaks, try it again.

Look in your local Yellow Pages - plumbing supplies. Go there and see what the fittings are like. Should be a shinny brass looking fitting (not copper), will be very heavy walled and feel heavy in your hand compared to the junk stuff.

If all else fails try these guys. Where I used to always buy all plumbing supplies, cheaper than anybody else, always had the best high quality stuff.

Economy Plumbing
3190 Washington St
Jamaica Plain, MA 02130



617-522-3222

If they still got some of the good stuff maybe could UPS you a box of goodies. I sort of got my own lifetime supply of tons of parts, ain't getting none of that China junk. Ain't selling any of it tho. Best of luck, it should work out. Just clean them old joint end super good with sandpaper. Use good solder / flux.

[GregW]

On difficult to get at joints I will "tin" the joint by coating both parts with a thin film of solder before assembling the fittings and pipes. After assembly, flux and heat the tinned parts and they will instantly fuse to a leak free joint. As cosmic inferred, when soldering copper cleanliness is the most important part. Never bother trying to solder copper pipe that is not shiney clean.

[NVplumber]

The joints popped aye? Yea thats unusual as fittings are all type K. Splits usually happen on the pipe not the fitting. Copper is good stuff when properly installed but I have become highly impressed with Pex. I use Rehau and Wiresboe, primarily, and it's great stuff. The downside is the tools you need to install it. They are spendy. It's a nice worry free setup when done though.

[texdav]

Its all in the person that instlls copper and does the jonts.Be sure and get a good plumber and pay the price.