Timber homes, as structurally sound as stick built lumber homes? (hardwood, engineered)

[potatosoup]

Since my engineer sort of gave a bit of a knock on timber built post and beam homes, I've been a bit skeptical. He felt if the pieces were finished and cut at a shop and not by hand on site, that the uniformity of the work could be good enough to hold up over the years. He also felt that when you notch out a piece of a beam, you haven't got left the structural strength that you think you have left.

Any science to this? Are not all timber built homes made equal? And are the good ones more expensive than a good stick built house?

[desertsun41]

I believe Timberbuilt construction was invented by the Amish. If they didn't invent it they sure did make it part of our construction vocabulary.

Timberbuilt or more commonly known as post and beam uses one of the oldest forms of joinery in woodworking. The mortise and tenon. The very best furniture today still uses mortise and tenon to make everything from couches to chairs and tables and whatever else we have in our homes.

I have also seen lap joints, Domino joints, pocket hole joints, and even ship lap joints. All very very strong wood joints.

No... cutting shapes to join wood does not weaken it. Well to a point it does but the usually 8 or 10 X 10" beams can handle any load without deflection if a couple inches were cut away for making a joint. These beams can span long distances making for a more open floor plan.

Technicaly a good wood craftsman who makes any joinery including mortise and tenon whether it be for house or furniture can construct without using any nails or fasteners of any kind. By drilling a hole through the mortise and tenon and hammering a tight fitting wooden peg through it, then either leaving the peg as is sticking out or trimming it off flush adds more strength and now you have more charactor too.

For centuries the Amish built their homes and barns using post and beam construction. Never using a single nail to frame the entire structure. And no machines either. On barn raising day all the townsfolk joined in to help build while the wives would prepare food all day for the hungry Amish men. Today hundreds of years later their homes and barns still stand and are level and plumb with no sagging at the ridge beam where stick built homes usually shows it's age first.

[jimboburnsy]

Things may be completely different in the NE, but a concern in my neck of the woods would be finding qualified labor. Any contractor can pick up a crew of day labor who are knowledgeable about platform framing, but finding people who know how to build in that style is more of a challenge. The labor is at a premium, the wood is at a premium and it means that the builder needs to know what he's doing. There are builders here who will not build single story homes (I think because they only know how to build crappy McMansions) and will tell you some sob story about how they do not recommend ranch-style houses because it will be a poor investment in the long term, you wind up paying more per square foot if you don't cover the entire lot with house, etc. etc. The issue is probably that their operation is set up to crank out what amounts to spec homes with some tweaks. If you get out of that window, they don't know what they're doing.

There are certainly drawbacks to post and beam construction but its plenty strong and plenty durable.

[Cosmic]

Those old timber designs are superior if done right. It is not the one member with some coping that is the problem. You must consider the entire structure as a system.

The problem for you is getting that type house will probably be way too expensive. You not only need the materials to be high grade but the craftmanship to do it. This Old House TV show did a couple of them using a factory type pre-engineered kit type house made in a factory setting and then assembled old style on site. That technique tries to use modern power tooling to do most of the grunt work but they also used skilled folks for the finish fit up's of the joints.

The Amish probably don't do it that way any more. Least not around my way. We go lots of Amish. See them building a new house, it is cinder block foundations, chipboard sheathing and a mix of their own local sawn lumber. Lot of their stuff comes on a lumber truck just like the rest of us fools. You know it is bad when in local auctions, sales, etc you can find lots of their hand tools for sale. That passes as progress. See the horse and buggy outside more modern looking shacks. Their barns are the same now too, made with chipboard. There are examples of houses in Japan where the guy made the entire house out of scrap pieces, nothing longer than a few feet and it is all done by their complex type of joinery. Not a nail in the shack. But you need the right guys with a lot of time on their hands. Just ain't going to happen for the modern Joe Sixpak.

That style of building is not American in origin. It comes from Europe. Been around for centuries. Lots of examples of buildings lasting hundred if not up to a thousand years.

Your better option is to look at more modern post and beam structures using bolted, not fitted members. Progress that can be afforded. Everybody wants the better mousetrap with all the whistles and bells but then the realities of the budget kicks in. Always use you own trees with local production of the wood products if possible.

There are some churches up where my sister lives. Designs, materials, craftsmanship to die for. The wood in them all is local, there is a company that is more mom / pop that saws, mills and can do extreme craftsmanship. Really into fancy milled trim. They also have their own kiln. My BIL is supposed to get me a tour of the place one of these dazes. For the better mousetrap always think local and how to I turn what I got into fab construction for lil or no money out of my pocket. Always remember who you are dealing with, bargain hard and deal with the best peeps.

The right guys will trade for services. One thing I keep in mind looking to build a house. First you want land with some prime standing timber. Start from there and bargain, trade, deal to get it into the house. Does not mean you have to do all the grunt work yourself. You do have to know what is available local. Kick dirt and talk to the locals. When you run that local produced stuff thru the planner, woo dog, real wood. Kick arse if you have the most desired hardwoods for close to nada. I know this one guy who has pretty much done it that way. All his wood is local and it was knocked out / finished in local mills / shops. He got a big pile of scyamore to kill for. Walnut used like trash wood. Local wood produced in high grade wide tonque and groove, that is the goal in so many cases. In many situations you got to be able to trade time for money. Engineers do not have all the answers. I know that from working with way to many of them.

[desertsun41]

Originally Posted by jimboburnsy

Things may be completely different in the NE, but a concern in my neck of the woods would be finding qualified labor. Any contractor can pick up a crew of day labor who are knowledgeable about platform framing, but finding people who know how to build in that style is more of a challenge. The labor is at a premium, the wood is at a premium and it means that the builder needs to know what he's doing. There are builders here who will not build single story homes (I think because they only know how to build crappy McMansions) and will tell you some sob story about how they do not recommend ranch-style houses because it will be a poor investment in the long term, you wind up paying more per square foot if you don't cover the entire lot with house, etc. etc. The issue is probably that their operation is set up to crank out what amounts to spec homes with some tweaks. If you get out of that window, they don't know what they're doing.

There are certainly drawbacks to post and beam construction but its plenty strong and plenty durable.

You ain't kidden bout finding skilled labor. It is nearly impossible to find skilled craftsman anymore. I think after I die the new generation of home buyers will go to Walmart to pick their chinese factory made house to drop it on their lot.

Where I come from, if you do not push to be perfect in everything you do then you will always be just average. Why would anyone want to be average and not be a star in everything they do? Overall I am proud when I get a call from someone a client from hundreds or thousands of miles away for my services or consulting. At least I know I made a mark in this world and in the mean time I get to brag that I worked for many of the who's who's in America.

Oh....... Jimbo I do believe most of those post and beam companies at least offer to send their own skilled people to your job site where ever it may be. Can you imagine picking up some of those day laborers from Home Depot parking lot and telling them to build your post and beam house?

[jimboburnsy]

Originally Posted by desertsun41

Oh....... Jimbo I do believe most of those post and beam companies at least offer to send their own skilled people to your job site where ever it may be. Can you imagine picking up some of those day laborers from Home Depot parking lot and telling them to build your post and beam house?

Its hard enough to imagine picking up day laborers and telling them to tile a bathroom. Post and beam? No saavy.

[al_roethlisberger]

The other trick along with skilled labor is finding the equivalent quality timber that was used in these older structures. It is still out there, but not as abundantly as in the past. That is another reason why even new Amish structures aren't built that way anymore, the giant trees aren't growing in large expanses right in their back yard anymore.

This is why barn salvage is such a great idea. These can be converted into great homes through saving their post/beam frame.

Al

[Cosmic]

The skilled craftsmanship thing might be addressed in a different way before too long. There are lower cost CNC machines slowly finding their way to market.

One I was looking at was ~$8000 and had like a full sheet of plywood bed axis and could do depths of ~ 8 inches. This will make many things possible again where the manual crafts have disappeared. Especially useful for very fancy carved interior trim, moldings, all sorts of woodworking applications. Including fancy joinery. Duplication once a design is prefected is a snap. Many normal power tools become obsolete. Precision becomes the name of the game. Things become possible that even skilled craftsmen might not attempt prior to this being available.

The full impact of this type technology is not even felt on something like the home building / repair industry yet. Impossible jobs may become economical and fairly easy in the near future. Costs of the machines are dropping quite rapid, capacities going up. Large public libraries of patterns, projects and solutions could make it even more attractive.

Something I sort of have on my wish list. To build a house yourself, for sure this is something to try out. Make all your own doors, cabinets, etc to an extreme high level of workmanship, to say nothing of what might be possible with interior trim, moldings and carvings. Again the source of your materials become even more critical.

[Shagbark Hickory]

Originally Posted by desertsun41

I think after I die the new generation of home buyers will go to Walmart to pick their chinese factory made house to drop it on their lot.

Actually this is not a new concept. Many, many years ago, people would order their houses out of a sears catalog. Some of which are still standing today.

Frankly, I like to see us go back to this whereby we by a city lot and we have a unique home as opposed to a walled in subdivision. Custom homes and city lots have become much more expensive than a cookie cutter mcmansion where I live.

[desertsun41]

Originally Posted by Shagbark Hickory

Actually this is not a new concept. Many, many years ago, people would order their houses out of a sears catalog. Some of which are still standing today.

Frankly, I like to see us go back to this whereby we by a city lot and we have a unique home as opposed to a walled in subdivision. Custom homes and city lots have become much more expensive than a cookie cutter mcmansion where I live.

Yes you are right. Those old Sears homes you can order from a catalog were awesome. And yes these are still standing today but for a reason. Those homes were built with pride in the USA with USA materials and USA labor.

If you were to buy a Chnese house you can be sure it will be so full of sulfur, formaldehyde and other toxic waste that the homes occupants will all die of cancer even before those homes disintegrate and decompose into a pile of toxic deadly rubble.