Bring house "up to code" before selling? (hardwood, roof, furnace)

[toodles17]

We are selling our home to relocate due to my husband's job, and an inspection was ordered by our relocation company, who will give us a buyout on the home if it doesn't sell. The inspection turned up a lot of things that aren't "to code" and the relocation company wants us to make the changes to put the home in accordance with code. The home is 50 years old (built in 1959) and I'm certain building codes were not as strict 50 years ago as they are now. I am under the impression that we're not legally required to bring the home up to current codes to sell it. Is it correct that it's really only subject to the codes that were in effect when the home was built due to grandfather clauses in the codes?

Does anyone have any recommendations for who to talk to or where to turn on the internet for this kind of information? Are these codes handled by the state or city? Or are they the same nation wide? (I'm a KS resident).

If anyone has any info that may help me fight a few of these updates they are trying to ask that we do, I'd appreciate it.

[ShaneSA]

What are the updates that are being requested? Look at the cost of the updates, convenience of doing them and return on the sale of the house. That will decide if you should do the updates. If it will improve the value by 10,000 and cost 1500 to do them, do it. If the cost of the updates is say 5,000 and the valuie added is 4, 000 or even 6,000, then fight it. The return is what matters most.
I would ask whoever is requesting the updates to code for the codes thay are quoting and then go to those entities to find out if the house is grandfathered.

[escanlan]

Hello toodles17,

Building codes are adopted by local Authorities Having Jurisdiction (AHJ) based on local and state laws. Without knowing where you are (city the home is in) it would be difficult to tell you who's building codes are in force, what they are and what they contain.

Normally older homes are exempt from most code requirements until some special action takes place, generally major modifications, repairs, upgrades, etc. However, some safety codes are timeless such as Ground Fault Circuit Interruptor usage (just one example) and are expected to be complied with under many different circumstances.

It really would be difficult to provide answers to your questions completely, and I am sure you have many questions, without the details and viewing the report. I would be happy to help where I can and, if you wish, you can email me directly (see my profile for my WEB site which has contact info). This can prevent from having to answer questions online that you may not want to expose on a public forum.

[3-Oaks]

Codes are funny things, so make sure you know exactly what is being asked for in each case.

Here, old knob & tube wiring is OK as long as you don't mess with it. If, for example, you want to add another outlet to a room, the whole room has to be brought up to code if you just want to extend the wiring from a switch, outlet, or fixture that's already there.

If you want to run a new wire all the way from the main panel to the new outlet, then you're OK as long as you don't do anything with the old K&T wiring.

[desertsun41]

I dont believe that relocation company has any authority to tell you to fix a damn thing. You are not required to change anything unless you are making a major modification just as escanlen said.

Are you saying the relocation company will not buy your home unless you make the modifications? That is black mail. That is bribery. Any home 50 years ago had anywhere from zero to very minor building codes. Even on a conventional sale with Realtors, at most the buyers will ask for major things to be repaired. Sounds like your relocation company is asking for more.

In America the 2 major model building codes are IBC and ICC. Most all larger cities modify and add things to suit their specific areas. The first building codes were adopted in about 1859 but were so basic in nature and virtually useless. By the turn of the century after some great fires that made history, many cites did adopt stricter fire codes but the wiring in homes remained pretty bad by todays standards which caused those fires. Well way back when.....lanterns caused fires too.

One of the origional building codes did not specify how to build anything but it did specify that if a home fell down and hurt anyone then the home builder shall be put to death. I believe that law is still on the books to this day.

I'm getting off the subject here. I believe you are being scammed. The relocation company worries that in this economic depression, your home will not sell. Most homes dont and they dont want to be stuck with it.

[Cattknap]

The relocation company is looking out for their own interests and probably don't want to get stuck with a home that won't sell.....many code requirements are basically safety issues. Most buyers want electrical and other systems related to safety brought up to code and those upgrades can be very expensive.

We sold our 1950 house last year to a young professional couple who were looking to begin their family. We were shocked when the buyer's inspector found so many things wrong with our home - we had always maintained it beautifully - new roof and furnace, beautiful new kitchen and bathrooms, new windows, refinished hardwood, new paint inside and out, professionally landscaped, custom plantation shutters....we had spent big $$ to upgrade, remodel and maintain that house - but there were tons of "safety" issues related to codes that had changed since we bought the house 24 years before.

We incurred expenses to bring the electrical to code (my husband did some of it, a knowledgeable friend did the rest) - this included extensive drywall and conduit in the garage, exterior and basement for exposed insulated wiring, missing junction boxes in the attic, reverse polarization on many of the outlets (our cost to upgrade was $500 but could have been $4,000 had we used an electrician and general contractor), chimney repair - $1200, new automatic garage door (our old one was fine but not up to current code) - $1,600 and a bunch of little things that my husband was able to upgrade for minimal cost (like strapping the water heater to the wall and installing a secondary safety valve, etc.).

You may not technically have to bring certain things up to code, but who is going to buy a house with safety issues? Believe me a good inspector will fill out his report in graphic detail that will scare young home buyers away. In So. California - the buyer pays for the inspection and young home buyers don't want to buy homes with safety isssues. The relocation company knows all this.

I can certainly understand the relocation company not wanting to deal with code issues or potential problems that could cause the house not to sell without repairs/upgrades that can be extensive and expensive.

[BigDGeek]

When I bought this house (built in 1957) it had an old Federal Pacific 125 amp circuit box that has been implicated in house fires, no arc fault protection, no grounded outlets, and no GFCI outlets. It also had an old hot water heater that, once the garage-to-game room-conversion was converted back into a garage, would be out of code due to its placement but even if the room had not been converted, it would still have been out of code due to the asbestos on the flue pipe.

The sellers were not required to remedy any of this nor were they even required to kick in money for me to fix it. I got them to grudgingly throw in $1,000 and it cost me more than that just to have the circuit panel replaced. The hot water heater and its flue pipe were replaced (at my expense) before I moved in, and a friend and I re-did the garage wiring ourselves, replacing the existing 2-prong outlets with GFCIs. I had an electrician add a grounded outlet inside the house because I could not get u-verse service without it. In time I will replace the kitchen and bathroom outlets with GFCIs; they are $10-$12 apiece, so it will cost me about $150 in materials alone.

Bottom line, are you legally required to bring your property up to modern building codes? Most likely not. My sellers definitely weren't! I think whether your buyers will insist on it will depend on how strong your local market is. The local market in this neighborhood was and is still pretty strong, so that puts buyers in a less advantageous position when it comes to negotiating for repairs because it is much more likely than not that the sellers could find someone willing to buy the house "warts and all."

[Cattknap]

Originally Posted by BigDGeek

When I bought this house (built in 1957) it had an old Federal Pacific 125 amp circuit box that has been implicated in house fires, no arc fault protection, no grounded outlets, and no GFCI outlets. It also had an old hot water heater that, once the garage-to-game room-conversion was converted back into a garage, would be out of code due to its placement but even if the room had not been converted, it would still have been out of code due to the asbestos on the flue pipe.

The sellers were not required to remedy any of this nor were they even required to kick in money for me to fix it. I got them to grudgingly throw in $1,000 and it cost me more than that just to have the circuit panel replaced. The hot water heater and its flue pipe were replaced (at my expense) before I moved in, and a friend and I re-did the garage wiring ourselves, replacing the existing 2-prong outlets with GFCIs. I had an electrician add a grounded outlet inside the house because I could not get u-verse service without it. In time I will replace the kitchen and bathroom outlets with GFCIs; they are $10-$12 apiece, so it will cost me about $150 in materials alone.

Bottom line, are you legally required to bring your property up to modern building codes? Most likely not. My sellers definitely weren't! I think whether your buyers will insist on it will depend on how strong your local market is. The local market in this neighborhood was and is still pretty strong, so that puts buyers in a less advantageous position when it comes to negotiating for repairs because it is much more likely than not that the sellers could find someone willing to buy the house "warts and all."

It is important to remember the original post. One problem with what you are recommending - it is a buyer's market most every place in the U.S. Finding anyone to buy most houses is difficult in most of the U.S. at this time - so why put up another barrier for resale by not bringing things up to code?

The relocation company is in business to make money, so of course they are going to want the owner to make any costly repairs - that is just common sense. Remember, they can decline to take on any property if they want to....they are requring upgrades - if those aren't done, they won't agree to take on the responsibility of selling the house.

We sold our home last year in Southern California near the beach - desirable neighborhood but homes were not selling well at all - mostly because sellers wanted too much money. Because our home was in top notch condition and we were willing to bring safety issues up to code, we sold our house in 3 weeks at full price (multiple offers)- unheard of in that market.

[desertsun41]

Originally Posted by Cattknap

The relocation company is looking out for their own interests and probably don't want to get stuck with a home that won't sell.....many code requirements are basically safety issues. Most buyers want electrical and other systems related to safety brought up to code and those upgrades can be very expensive.

We sold our 1950 house last year to a young professional couple who were looking to begin their family. We were shocked when the buyer's inspector found so many things wrong with our home - we had always maintained it beautifully - new roof and furnace, beautiful new kitchen and bathrooms, new windows, refinished hardwood, new paint inside and out, professionally landscaped, custom plantation shutters....we had spent big $$ to upgrade, remodel and maintain that house - but there were tons of "safety" issues related to codes that had changed since we bought the house 24 years before.

We incurred expenses to bring the electrical to code (my husband did some of it, a knowledgeable friend did the rest) - this included extensive drywall and conduit in the garage, exterior and basement for exposed insulated wiring, missing junction boxes in the attic, reverse polarization on many of the outlets (our cost to upgrade was $500 but could have been $4,000 had we used an electrician and general contractor), chimney repair - $1200, new automatic garage door (our old one was fine but not up to current code) - $1,600 and a bunch of little things that my husband was able to upgrade for minimal cost (like strapping the water heater to the wall and installing a secondary safety valve, etc.).

You may not technically have to bring certain things up to code, but who is going to buy a house with safety issues? Believe me a good inspector will fill out his report in graphic detail that will scare young home buyers away. In So. California - the buyer pays for the inspection and young home buyers don't want to buy homes with safety isssues. The relocation company knows all this.

I can certainly understand the relocation company not wanting to deal with code issues or potential problems that could cause the house not to sell without repairs/upgrades that can be extensive and expensive.

You are pretty much right. But I cant stop thinking of an old Realtor term in which they refer to Home Inspectors. "Deal Killers'.

[K'ledgeBldr]

Originally Posted by toodles17

The inspection turned up a lot of things that aren't "to code" and the relocation company wants us to make the changes to put the home in accordance with code. The home is 50 years old (built in 1959) and I'm certain building codes were not as strict 50 years ago as they are now.
Yes, you are correct in your assumption.
I am under the impression that we're not legally required to bring the home up to current codes to sell it. Is it correct that it's really only subject to the codes that were in effect when the home was built due to grandfather clauses in the codes?
There are no "grandfather codes" Whatever the codes were at the time of construction are the codes at which to build-but your impression is correct.

Does anyone have any recommendations for who to talk to or where to turn on the internet for this kind of information? Are these codes handled by the state or city? Or are they the same nation wide? (I'm a KS resident).
Where ever the house is located- if it is within a city's limits or in an unincorporated county area. Each county or municipality has the right to accept the state accepted codes and enforce them as is- and/or ammend them to their own liking( but it can't be less than the state's)
I'm sure the inspector was going on the latest codes- hence the "violations"

If anyone has any info that may help me fight a few of these updates they are trying to ask that we do, I'd appreciate it.

All in all; I agree with what Shane says:

Originally Posted by ShaneSA

Look at the cost of the updates, convenience of doing them and return on the sale of the house. That will decide if you should do the updates. If it will improve the value by 10,000 and cost 1500 to do them, do it. If the cost of the updates is say 5,000 and the valuie added is 4, 000 or even 6,000, then fight it. The return is what matters most.