Cabinet Manufacturers That DO NOT Use Chinese Plywood, Etc. (alternatives, phone, color)

[Pilgrim21784]

Does anybody know of a kitchen cabinet maker that doesn't use Chinese plywood or related wood products in their cabinets? I'm looking at buying a new kitchen from a higher end custom supplier (this is NOT a lower end cabinet supplier) and just found out that they use plywood from Chinese sources.

The Chinese products are reportedly tested and confirmed to CARB standards by a company based in Hong Kong. I'm leery of non-US sourced wood products --- the Chinese drywall and dog food items of recent memory were supposed to meet US standards as well. I'm not too sure I want to risk purchasing non-US cabinets. Anyone else have the same issues or information on the subject?

[Narfcake]

If it was independently tested, with random samples, it'd be fine. If that testing lab isn't independent and were provided the samples for testing, I'd be weary.

The thing is, there are no US standards for emissions, hence why formaldehyde laden plywood that are too toxic to even sell in China can be shipped to the States to be sold.

CorpWatch*:*US: Unwanted Imports: Goods deemed toxic elsewhere shipped to U.S.

Note that some US companies weren't any better in providing low emission products, so being simply being Made in USA isn't a guarantee either.

That all said, I'm sure desertsun41 here has more insight as to which cabinet manufacturers use low emission wood products for their cabinets ...

[Pilgrim21784]

Narfcake, many, many thanks for the info. I'm hoping DS41 chimes in. I've read all his great postings on the subject. I thought I was following his advice but both I and my cabinet retail supplier were unaware that the cabinet company, Brighten, uses US plywood for veneers (which was all the info the supplier was aware of), BUT the box plywood comes from China.

I found that out by asking the company directly. Brighten's China plywood is supposedly certified to meet California Air Resource Board Phase II Compliant standards. The certification is performed by an international company, SGS, based in Hong Kong. I haven't a clue about SGS, I'm waiting for some feedback from CARB about SGS.

Who the hell would have thought that something as simple as buying kitchen cabinets would be this complicated? Given the history of Chinese products (drywall, dog food, etc.) which one would assume were supposed to meet applicable US standards, I'm more than a bit leery of this entire situation. Brighten responded that they will build cabinets with US plywood --- for a 17% premium over their exiting "not cheap" costs based on my inquiry. I thinks it time for me to find a small local cabinet maker who uses verifiably low emissions material from US sources and skip this crap.

[desertsun41]

Well hello. I heard my ears ringing. DO NOT EVER EVER EVER buy a cabinet that does not have a KCMA sticker inside the door. I never heard of that Kong Kong testing company but I can assure you no cabinet can pass the test of KCMA unless it is the best of the best. And many lessor cost cabinet brands are KCMA certified too. So you don't have to spend a whole lot of money on the best brands to get it.

Brands who are KCMA certified will have this sticker proudly displayed inside the left door of each cabinet box. They also make a new certification called KCMA Green which certifies that the cabinet meets all environmental standards. You will not find that on those Chinese brands. On Chinese brands the only sticker you will find is the cross and skull.

I know of no American made cabinet manufacturers that use Chinese plywood on their products. The very very few lumber suppliers who tried carrying Chinese plywood had to eat a whole lot of wood with all the complaints and comebacks they had. They never got reimbursed. So it is probably not possible to even find a distributor/supplier who sells that junk anymore.

What is a higher end custom supplier to you? Are you talking about a major cabinet manufacturer or some one who builds them in his shop?

Just in case anyone wants to learn about them
http://www.kcma.org/

[Pilgrim21784]

DS41, you are a prince and a scholar! Thanks for checking in and responding. I'm working with Cabinet Discounters, a mini-chain here in the MD/VA area. Two of their higher priced lines, BRIGHTEN AND GRABILL, both use Chinese sourced plywood. BRIGHTEN will do the cabinets in US goods for a 17% price boost. GRABILL will also for an unknown price (GRABILL is considerably more expensive than BRIGHTEN according to Cabinet Discounters). These are not Chinese cabinet makers, they are US operations. I'm still checking on their other suppliers, APPLE VALLEY, ARISTOCRAFT and HOME CREST. I'm playing phone tag with the CARB folks in California to try and check out the certification company, SGS.

I looked at Merillat on line but they don't have the color/door combination the wife wants. She wants the Fusion (Classic) or Epic (Masterpiece) door style in Maple with a very light, whitish stain. The Fusion Classic's colors other than natural are way too dark. The Epic Masterpiece offerings in Muslin or Honey Spice are too brown or dark. I've no clue what Merillat costs.

My kitchen is pretty simple: 7 wall cabinets: 3-21"x42", 1-24x42, 1-30x24, 1-36x24 & 1- neo angle 24 by 24 each wall x 42" corner cabinet. 6 base: 2-21", 1-5" mini tray, 1-24" sink base, 1 -neo angle corner w/ EZ door & Lazy Susan 33" each wall & 1-15". Wood is Maple with a white stained finish (its Frost on Brighten's website - Brighton Cabinetry | Kitchen Cabinets Gaithersburg | Bathroom Vanities Mt. Airy | Discount Cabinetry (http://www.cabinetdiscounters.com/products/kitchens/cabinets/brighton-cabinetry.html - broken link)) . The cabinets with simple top moulding, kick plate and handles would cost me just over $6,700 without installation. I'm using my own install contractor, a guy who has done a lot of other work for me and does 8-10 kitchens a year. Any suggestions for cabinet alternatives would be appreciated.

Its too late today to check on the KCMA certification but I'll definitely do it first thing tomorrow. I take it that if BRIGHTEN is KCMA Green certified, with the Chinese goods, you would bless their product? Many, many thanks for your input.

[Pilgrim21784]

DS41 - just noted that BRIGHTEN cabinets are KCMA ESP (green) certified, with the Chinese plywood. So is GRABILL. How does that compute with your knowledge?

Forget to answer your question - higher end means that they will do custom sizes and products: my 5" mini-tray cabinet, a custom sized mobile cart I designed for a John Boos butcher block top or a corner wall shelf I want in a non-standard size. These items are not included in my earlier layout and price information. I don't know how large the companies are, I'm checking on that info.

You've got me really curious, I just sent an inquiry to Merillat about whether they use any high quality Chinese wood products in their cabinets.

[desertsun41]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim21784

DS41 - just noted that BRIGHTEN cabinets are KCMA ESP (green) certified, with the Chinese plywood. So is GRABILL. How does that compute with your knowledge?

Forget to answer your question - higher end means that they will do custom sizes and products: my 5" mini-tray cabinet, a custom sized mobile cart I designed for a John Boos butcher block top or a corner wall shelf I want in a non-standard size. These items are not included in my earlier layout and price information. I don't know how large the companies are, I'm checking on that info.

You've got me really curious, I just sent an inquiry to Merillat about whether they use any high quality Chinese wood products in their cabinets.

No need to check on Merillat. I know Merillat intimately, almost as well as Orville and Ruth Merillat who founded the company in 1946. I put my first Merillat kitchen in way back in March of 1981. To date I have done well over 6000 Merillat kitchens. That's probably around 250 or so per year. I can assure you as well as bet the farm there is no Chinese materials used in this product. Proof of that might be that I am still as healthy as a 20 year old and I am into my 50s.

I would so highly recommend Merillat. Sadly I no longer carry it due to transportation problems in my new area. Merillat can be had anywhere in the USA in just 5 business days delivered to your door.....except Texas. No cabinet company on earth can come even close to that.

In your last post you mentioned Merillat Masterpiece. Masterpiece is very expensive. It is real Ethan Allen quality furniture cabinets. By the way. Kraftmaid makes Masterpiece for Merillat and Merillat stamps their name on it. Kraftmaid, Merillat, Quality, Mills Pride and several other major cabinet brands are all owned by Masco Companies. Masco has their hands into everything. They own 90% of the world market for faucets which includes all the most popular and common brands known by everyone.

That Brighten or Grabil I never heard of. I suspect it is some small local company native to the Del-Mar area.

[desertsun41]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim21784

DS41,



My kitchen is pretty simple: 7 wall cabinets: 3-21"x42", 1-24x42, 1-30x24, 1-36x24 & 1- neo angle 24 by 24 each wall x 42" corner cabinet. 6 base: 2-21", 1-5" mini tray, 1-24" sink base, 1 -neo angle corner w/ EZ door & Lazy Susan 33" each wall & 1-15". Wood is Maple with a white stained finish (its Frost on Brighten's website - Brighton Cabinetry | Kitchen Cabinets Gaithersburg | Bathroom Vanities Mt. Airy | Discount Cabinetry (http://www.cabinetdiscounters.com/products/kitchens/cabinets/brighton-cabinetry.html - broken link)) . The cabinets with simple top moulding, kick plate and handles would cost me just over $6,700 without installation. I'm using my own install contractor, a guy who has done a lot of other work for me and does 8-10 kitchens a year. Any suggestions for cabinet alternatives would be appreciated.

.

Just for sheets and giggles I followed your box sizes you gave above. Most cabinet manufactures are pretty damn close with their list price pricing schedules. I know because I worked with so many of them over the years.

I put each of your boxes in my program, then I choose a door style and wood species (color does not change price unless you add glazing). The door style I chose most closely matches the one you gave. I also chose maple as you said.

Sit down first. My list price is about $100 less then the $6700 quoted you. For all intents and purposes lets say it's the same price...$6700. If you don't believe me I will send you the print out with the itemized materials list. My list price is just about the same as the brand you want to buy right? Have you read any of my past posts about NOT paying list price? You are being raped!!. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

I just wrote down what I buy that kitchen for but erased it thinking it might not be proper. But I will say this: You should be buying that kitchen for $3350 which most small cabinet dealers sell it for. We also charge $30 per box to install. You have 13 box count which means install should cost you about $390.

Are you feeling bad? Sorry I don't know where to send you. I used to recommend Reico in Maryland who sells Merillat for the standard 50% off list but last I heard they closed a few stores due to the depression. Oh I know where to send you. I wont give the web site. Go to Just Cabinets. They have 21 locations in your 3 surrounding states. They carry Kraftmaid, Quality and Prestige which are all Masco products. I know for a fact they sell for 50% off list every day to the public.

Let me know how you make out.

By the way.....a 24" sink base?!?!?!?!?!?!
No self respecting Kitchen Designer or a Cabinet Salesman would put a 24" SB in a kitchen. Fire that guy!!

[Pilgrim21784]

Amigo, many thanks for the time and great info. I did pay attention to your earlier cost posts. The problem is in getting list pricing. I tried hard to get KraftMaid's and others on-line with no luck. Reico is bad news price wise, their shop is setup for the really expensive stuff, at least in our area.

In the end, the standard suppliers can't offer the non-standard custom stuff I mentioned earlier so they aren't really an option.

Regarding the sink base size, its not the designer's fault (DW is the designer). It's what the space will allow with other changes she wants within the configuration. She actually downsized from a 30" base. Its her kitchen, her call. I just say "yes dear". We former Marine Viet Nam combat vets are wimps!

What's your take on the KCMA ESP certification on the Brighten products (which includes the Chinese plywood as noted previously)? Brighten and Grabill are both midwestern companies, not locals.

[desertsun41]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim21784

Amigo, many thanks for the time and great info. I did pay attention to your earlier cost posts. The problem is in getting list pricing. I tried hard to get KraftMaid's and others on-line with no luck. Reico is bad news price wise, their shop is setup for the really expensive stuff, at least in our area.

In the end, the standard suppliers can't offer the non-standard custom stuff I mentioned earlier so they aren't really an option.

Regarding the sink base size, its not the designer's fault (DW is the designer). It's what the space will allow with other changes she wants within the configuration. She actually downsized from a 30" base. Its her kitchen, her call. I just say "yes dear". We former Marine Viet Nam combat vets are wimps!

What's your take on the KCMA ESP certification on the Brighten products (which includes the Chinese plywood as noted previously)? Brighten and Grabill are both midwestern companies, not locals.

No one will publish list prices. There is no where you can find list price or MSRP of the box of cereal you buy in the grocery store. But you might be surprised they buy it for about 60 cents and sell it for about $3.69. Ask your dealer if they discount from list. I show people my book. I have nothing to hide. I get great pleasure in showing them a specific box from their drawing and pointing out the price and then telling them they pay half that.

Again I am not familiar with Grabil but if it has any Chinese materials then it will not be KCMA certified.

I saw nothing in your list of boxes that were not standard. Why might you be saying that? There is nothing stock sized industry standards can't do that custom makers do anyway. Everything you listed for me is stock standard which everyone carries. Forget about that word custom.

I still hate a 24" sink base, it is not a good idea in a kitchen. There may not be enough room for all the plumbing, garbage disposal etc. I also do not like those 33" lazy susans. The access is so small. Try real hard to use the standard 36" ones. It sounds like you might be trying to put more in your kitchen then you have room for. Don't feel bad, you're not alone. I know the wife is always the boss, at least they feel they are since they have the goods that men want so women get their way. But you must convince her she is steering this project down the wrong path unless you get some outside advice. Most times, even non kitchen remodels, a new fresh mind full of ideas is needed. I know she has her heart set on some things but a few things I see are just not good and the reasons need to be explained why they are not good.