Thermography in Home inspections (Howe: first time home buyer, crawl space, buyer)
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Hello. I'm in the process of choosing an inspector to inspect a house I'm purchasing. One inspector is charging $340 with a termite inspection while the other is around $410 without termite inspection. Both are quite reputable but what was interesting was the debate over "Thermography." One insisted it was fairly important as it finds 'anomalys' that most inspectors normally wouldn't find visually. The argument that this causes is that these 'anomalies' that might be found sometimes aren't problems. Is there anyone one out there that could enlighten me and tell me what the deal is? I'm assuming it's great technology, but maybe it could probably cause more problems than anything?
Hello. I'm in the process of choosing an inspector to inspect a house I'm purchasing. One inspector is charging $340 with a termite inspection while the other is around $410 without termite inspection. Both are quite reputable but what was interesting was the debate over "Thermography." One insisted it was fairly important as it finds 'anomalys' that most inspectors normally wouldn't find visually. The argument that this causes is that these 'anomalies' that might be found sometimes aren't problems. Is there anyone one out there that could enlighten me and tell me what the deal is? I'm assuming it's great technology, but maybe it could probably cause more problems than anything?
I had a house inspector do our inspection and a termite expert look for termites. I'm wary of jack-of-all-trades.
I had a house inspector do our inspection and a termite expert look for termites. I'm wary of jack-of-all-trades.
I agree. One of my favorite and thorough inspectors does both - but I don't like it, for some reason. He also does mold and stucco - I guess I just feel that's too much input from one person.
What you said about Therm scans being a double edged sword is correct I think. I remember a few inspectors saying that it is useful for some situations, but many companies try to market it as the best gizmo out there, that it is an absolute must, because they're one of the few companies that carries it. I think Therm scans just detect temperature changes, but you need to interpret them and put them into context, hence the controversy. Ie, it can show an area of poor insulation. However, on a day when outdoor ambient temperature is the same as indoor, I don't think you can detect much b/c the temperature is the same everywhere (A false negative). Likewise, some areas with water may light up the thermscan, but is this a normal thing in that area such as pipe, or is it a leak? I was told by several inspectors that it is definitely helpful to ahve one on hand in case inspector finds a suspicious area that needs further investigation, but it's not necessary to use it in a ubiquitous manner. You can also get scans showing abnormal areas but when further investigated, there is a logical reason for the abnormal contrasts. Anyway, not sure if this is absolutely correct but a lot of what you said rings a big bell for me.
Hello. I'm in the process of choosing an inspector to inspect a house I'm purchasing. One inspector is charging $340 with a termite inspection while the other is around $410 without termite inspection. Both are quite reputable but what was interesting was the debate over "Thermography." One insisted it was fairly important as it finds 'anomalys' that most inspectors normally wouldn't find visually. The argument that this causes is that these 'anomalies' that might be found sometimes aren't problems. Is there anyone one out there that could enlighten me and tell me what the deal is? I'm assuming it's great technology, but maybe it could probably cause more problems than anything?
Hello pbush3,
Not only am I a licensed Texas Professional Inspector but I am also a trained Thermographer and do perform thermal imaging on homes. I am also a very staunch consumer advocate, that means your advocate! I will try to stay away from being technical in the response.
Yes you are correct that some indications of anomalies are no problem at all. It is important that all anomalies be properly checked for causes, or potential causes, as much as can be without getting into destructive inspection techniques. This requires not only being able to use a thermal imager but also being well versed in building sciences, and having good analytical abilities. It also takes additional time during the inspection. Having these traits a good Inspector can make a decision about what is or is not a potential problem and what might need to be done further to check and verify the anomaly.
Thermal imaging has many very good uses when performing a home inspection. However many times the conditions can not be controlled to perform a "Full" thermal inspection of a home. Additionally a complete thermal inspection of a home can potentially take as much time as the rest of the home inspection would. I try to use the imager on all inspections but on a limited basis. I also do not charge for this limited use as it helps me perform some tasks that would take additional time with ladders and other equipment. I do offer more extensive thermal imaging services to my clients but I also do not push it on them. I will mention it is available and also tell them to wait and see what a basic check and the rest of the inspection finds. After all why pay extra for something if it might show no significant concerns with a basic check? If an Inspector is trying to push it on you be very careful!
You have to be very careful with those that are advertising thermal imaging as the be all and end all for home inspections. Most of what I read on these WEB sites is nothing more than fluff intended to draw you into using their services. We even have one Inspector in Texas explaining that thermal imaging cuts his inspection time in half and allows him to provide the report quicker. What a load of horse poo that one is! Regardless of whether it is a basic scan or a more extensive scan, when performed properly it is a net time loss for (adds time to) the inspection process.
If you are interested in having thermal imaging performed on your home make sure you know what you are getting. Ask them what they are scanning and for what reason. For example if they claim to be scanning your electrical panel for hot spots in an empty house, with no obvious load on the panel, then something is certainly not right there! If the Inspector is making all kinds of lofty claims about thermal imaging then steer clear of them. If they claim that they perform a full thermal scan and it is "Free" then run like heck the other way as nothing that advanced, and that can consume additional time, is free.
If you have specific questions about thermal imaging or its use for home inspections please feel free to contact me. I will be happy to answer your questions.
Not only am I a licensed Texas Professional Inspector but I am also a trained Thermographer and do perform thermal imaging on homes. I am also a very staunch consumer advocate, that means your advocate! I will try to stay away from being technical in the response.
Yes you are correct that some indications of anomalies are no problem at all. It is important that all anomalies be properly checked for causes, or potential causes, as much as can be without getting into destructive inspection techniques. This requires not only being able to use a thermal imager but also being well versed in building sciences, and having good analytical abilities. It also takes additional time during the inspection. Having these traits a good Inspector can make a decision about what is or is not a potential problem and what might need to be done further to check and verify the anomaly.
Thermal imaging has many very good uses when performing a home inspection. However many times the conditions can not be controlled to perform a "Full" thermal inspection of a home. Additionally a complete thermal inspection of a home can potentially take as much time as the rest of the home inspection would. I try to use the imager on all inspections but on a limited basis. I also do not charge for this limited use as it helps me perform some tasks that would take additional time with ladders and other equipment. I do offer more extensive thermal imaging services to my clients but I also do not push it on them. I will mention it is available and also tell them to wait and see what a basic check and the rest of the inspection finds. After all why pay extra for something if it might show no significant concerns with a basic check? If an Inspector is trying to push it on you be very careful!
You have to be very careful with those that are advertising thermal imaging as the be all and end all for home inspections. Most of what I read on these WEB sites is nothing more than fluff intended to draw you into using their services. We even have one Inspector in Texas explaining that thermal imaging cuts his inspection time in half and allows him to provide the report quicker. What a load of horse poo that one is! Regardless of whether it is a basic scan or a more extensive scan, when performed properly it is a net time loss for (adds time to) the inspection process.
If you are interested in having thermal imaging performed on your home make sure you know what you are getting. Ask them what they are scanning and for what reason. For example if they claim to be scanning your electrical panel for hot spots in an empty house, with no obvious load on the panel, then something is certainly not right there! If the Inspector is making all kinds of lofty claims about thermal imaging then steer clear of them. If they claim that they perform a full thermal scan and it is "Free" then run like heck the other way as nothing that advanced, and that can consume additional time, is free.
If you have specific questions about thermal imaging or its use for home inspections please feel free to contact me. I will be happy to answer your questions.
Good advice. I think a good home inspector would recommend a thermal scan if the situation warrants it.
If someone is pushing it, it's probably because they want to justify the added cost.
I just put in a bid on a house built in 1958. The home-owner had a property inspection done in the summer. The inspector noted that the gutter system was incomplete and that flashing around the chimney was installed incorrectly. There are some cracks in the mortar of the chimney as well. Escanlan, Do you think this warrants me paying for someone to come out and do thermal imaging? The house is in Nor. CA and it is the rainy season now, with day temperatures in the 50's. Thanks for any input.
I just put in a bid on a house built in 1958. The home-owner had a property inspection done in the summer. The inspector noted that the gutter system was incomplete and that flashing around the chimney was installed incorrectly. There are some cracks in the mortar of the chimney as well. Escanlan, Do you think this warrants me paying for someone to come out and do thermal imaging? The house is in Nor. CA and it is the rainy season now, with day temperatures in the 50's. Thanks for any input.
Hello jovial gent,
Your current weather and temperatures are conducive to help find water penetration issues using thermal imaging. However I would first look for signs of potential water penetration and damage first before making a decision as to whether to bring in a Thermographer for scans. That is unless the the Thermographer/Inspector performing the thermal imaging is offering you a good price on the scanning for the potential affected areas as well as the many other issues that can be found.
First let's discuss the potential signs of water damage. Also keep in mind that even though the signs are there the original issues could have been corrected. We'll start with the chimney issue and hopefully your inspection and report was thorough.
Flashing issues around chimneys are a common water penetration point. Here are several very good guides for chimneys. We'll discuss the flashing in a moment.
Not sure what the Inspector stated was the incorrect flashing found but the most common issues are:
No cricket (saddle) behind chimneys that are 30" and wider. Lack of a cricket allows the rainwater to pool behind the chimney and slowly find openings.
The base flashing on the sides is installed backwards. Upper parts of the step flashing should be installed over the piece below it to prevent water entry at their joint.
No counter flashing or improperly installed counter flashings around the chimney.
Many times at the corners of the chimney the flashings have not been properly extended slightly beyond the corners and create gaps for water entry.
During the inspection the Inspector should have been looking for the following signs of potential water penetration:
water stains inside the home near the chimney on sheetrock and wood trim. If the inside had been recently painted it can possibly hide these stains.
In the attic around the chimney look for staining and damaged wood as well as possible staining of brick if it is a full brick chimney.
On the roof besides the incorrectly installed flashing look for signs of shingle damage from water under the shingles.
If the chimney is at the very edge of the home look for water damage to the soffit, fascia and frieze board materials as well as possible streaking of any siding or brick.
If this is a manufactured metal fireplace then rusting in the firebox or other metal components that are visible.
Many Inspectors who do not use thermal imaging do carry a moisture meter with them to check for active water penetration in all of the areas noted above. Did your Inspector indicate he/she used one and found no indications of active water penetration? How long was it before the inspection that it last rained? If it was long enough it is always possible the Inspector saw no active water penetration signs.
I am not quite sure what was meant by "incomplete gutters" but have included a couple of links here that have some good gutter installation material and plenty of pictures and diagrams.
The only water penetration issues I can see from gutters is at the top trough area if the drip edge flashings are not installed properly over the rear edge of the gutters. You can look for signs of damage at the soffit and fascia boards. If damage is occurring there it can always have entered the exterior walls. Other than that unless the gutters were not run completely down and away from exterior walls they might penetrate sidewall joints in the the siding or openings in brick.
It can never hurt to bring in an Inspector that uses thermal imaging to run a full set of scans on your home. In a Circa 1958 home there are many possible finds unless heavy remodeling was performed. Some of the useful points, but not all, for your home could be:
Significant insulation settlement or loss in outer walls.
Of course water penetration from the outside.
The possibility of plumbing leaks affecting walls around tubs, showers, sinks. Even small drips at the back of shower heads and other areas can be detected.
If enough load can be placed on your electrical system then hotspots and problems there.
Leaking ductwork for the heating and cooling system. I did one house where the ductwork was leaking badly in one area but the ductwork was covered with blown insulation. That was caught by scanning ceilings from the inside as the leakage was not enough to visibly blow insulation around in the attic.
Your temperatures are cold enough now to help identify air leakages around windows and other areas.
If you would like to email me your report I can review it to see if thermal might be useful for anything noted there. If you choose to perform thermal it might be more cost effective to have a more thorough check of the homes systems performed rather than just around the chimney and outer walls for leaks.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response. I appreciate the links and information you provided. As a first time home buyer I am ignorant about many things and it's good to hear from an experienced person. Since the owner had the inspection done about 4 months ago I was not able to talk to the inspector and ask about things like the moisture meter. It's also worth noting that when the inspection took place was during the dry season. It probably hadn't rained for 40-70 days before the inspection happened. I'm scheduling a walk-through for this Friday. It's been raining lots so a great time to check in the crawl space and attic for signs of water leaking in.
I'll email you the report (it's PDF file) but let me include some things here so it might help other people.
Regarding the roof:
"Repair: The roof flashing was found to be loose and/or inadequately secured at the chimney. Loose flash is not likely to perform as intended and should be repaired. Improvement to better secure this flashing is suggested."
Regarding the gutter:
"A partial gutter system has been installed. This system, while in generally good condition, only partially catches the roof runoff. Gutters and downspouts are intended to collect and distribute roof runoff away from the structure and help to reduce moisture damage from splash back and/or moisture seepage below the home. We suggest improvements to the gutter system should be undertaken to provide gutters at the edge of all roof slopes. Improvements are discretionary."
Regarding the electrical system:
"Several ungrounded outlets were found in various locations throughout the home. These ungrounded outlets when found should be improved. This can be as simple as filling the ground slot with epoxy to prevent use by 3-prong power cords or the receptacle can be returned to a 2-prong type. Alternatively, upgrading the outlet by adding a ground wire could be undertaken. Some electrical codes allow the installation of a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) type outlet where grounding is not provided. Improvements are recommended"
Thanks for taking the time to write such a thorough response. I appreciate the links and information you provided. As a first time home buyer I am ignorant about many things and it's good to hear from an experienced person. Since the owner had the inspection done about 4 months ago I was not able to talk to the inspector and ask about things like the moisture meter. It's also worth noting that when the inspection took place was during the dry season. It probably hadn't rained for 40-70 days before the inspection happened. I'm scheduling a walk-through for this Friday. It's been raining lots so a great time to check in the crawl space and attic for signs of water leaking in.
Since you are having rain now it is a great time to do this. I am not sure of the particulars of your transaction (don't place them in this forum here) but be prepared for how you will handle any issues found. If you are outside of any allowed option period then you might have issues if you bring any problems found up at this point. However I would not be silent if you do find problems.
I'll email you the report (it's PDF file) but let me include some things here so it might help other people.
Regarding the roof:
"Repair: The roof flashing was found to be loose and/or inadequately secured at the chimney. Loose flash is not likely to perform as intended and should be repaired. Improvement to better secure this flashing is suggested."
Regarding the gutter:
"A partial gutter system has been installed. This system, while in generally good condition, only partially catches the roof runoff. Gutters and downspouts are intended to collect and distribute roof runoff away from the structure and help to reduce moisture damage from splash back and/or moisture seepage below the home. We suggest improvements to the gutter system should be undertaken to provide gutters at the edge of all roof slopes. Improvements are discretionary."
Regarding the electrical system:
"Several ungrounded outlets were found in various locations throughout the home. These ungrounded outlets when found should be improved. This can be as simple as filling the ground slot with epoxy to prevent use by 3-prong power cords or the receptacle can be returned to a 2-prong type. Alternatively, upgrading the outlet by adding a ground wire could be undertaken. Some electrical codes allow the installation of a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) type outlet where grounding is not provided. Improvements are recommended"
I'll have to be as gracious as possible in answering this but have to answer with a question or two. HUH?? WHAT??
Thanks again...
Hi jovial gent,
I highlighted in red a couple of items above and put my comments in blue under them.
Just wanted to let you know that I am reviewing those reports now. I will not add anything to this forum to protect your privacy. I will try to get it all together tonight and have it ready for you to pull later or in the morning.
To answer your original question about thermal imaging, from what I have seen so far yes I would recommend that you consider having more in depth checking performed with thermal imaging, and if not then at least an Inspector who uses a decent grade of moisture meter.
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