Houston vs Seattle (Galveston, Conroe, New Braunfels: plantations, move to, activity)

[robertpolyglot]

Originally Posted by The A-Team

This is very true. I am a white male and lived in Miami for a while. I couldn't go anywhere without being discriminated against because i was not cuban. I remember being first in line to order food at a fast food resturaunt, the lady was extremely rude to me. Then she was so very nice to the cubans behind me. She took about 5 peoples orders afterwards. They all got their food first. They made mine afterwards and were very rude about it. This happened on a daily basis. I was enrolled at Florida International University, one of the southeasts biggest and best universitys. I left it and came back to community college in Seattle because i could no longer take the racism. :/

I don't know why, but Miami people can be rude. I credit the New York tempo transplanted to South Florida that really doesn't have a place there...why should it? The pace is slow, the sun shines and the density is low. Miami is just not that dense for people to be so stressed out.

On the other hand, I've rarely gotten poor service there. I am Caucasian (Italian, but white and not olive-skinned) but I speak Spanish. In fact, I speak Spanish with a Cuban accent since I grew up in one of L.A.'s few Cuban pockets on the West Side, going to Catholic grade school with a lot of them and hanging out at their houses after school. Half of my childhood friends were Cuban, so I guess I put out a receptive vibe. I like Miami, but living there could be a challenge, especially if you are REALLY Anglo.

I had that bad treatment that changed with the customer while in Portugal. I was buying a train ticket. The lady at the counter was nice to a Portuguese customer in front of me. I came next and she was extremely abrupt. (I was wondering if it was because there was some violence toward the Portuguese that week up in the UK where they tend to assume I am from). Even speaking their language didn't seem to help.

Jerky people with baggage are EVERYWHERE...but in some places more than others.

[theermans426]

[quote=cjester;2737267]

Originally Posted by [B

theermans[/b]426;2733428]
Houston is the South, as is most of Texas. The cowboy/western thing is something that doesn't make a whole lot of sense
quote]
Unfortunately, many sociologists as well as historians will disagree with your assesment about Houston. According to many experts, including Joel Garreau, who wrote the book: The Nine Nations of North America, in which he explains that Houston sits on three borders. To the east it borders dixie, better known as the south. To the south it borders MexAmerica better known as the southwest and finally to the north it borders the breadbasket better known as the midwest. Houston has acquired more culture from all those three regions. Think about Atlanta. Can you find as good tex-mex food one finds in houston? Look at Chicago. Can you find as good as cajun or southern food there? Or think of LA. Can one find the traditional black culture one finds in Houston? I think not! See link.
The Nine Nations of North America

Well, thats all fine and dandy as far as his theory goes.... but history and culture will tell you that obviously, Houston and Texas are basically the South. If the nine nations theory suits your fancy, then by all means enjoy that. However, I will look to the history of the city and state and myself and family to know what region Texas and Houston lies in, and not some theory that has no basis.

Thanks. Are you a native Texan and Houstonian? My guess is no, and as far as being integrated, you are incorrect. Do people in Houston live in close proximity to each other? maybe so, but in the Houston microcosm you have black neighborhoods, mexican neighborhoods and white neighborhoods, and the people who are forced to be together (heights) simply do not interact culturally with each other. Period. Enough of the fantasy Houston, dang.

[theermans426]

Originally Posted by tstone

Yeah, you know those German Texans that have been here since the mid 1800s are generally what we think of when we say "Deep South."



Y'all are definitely in your own little world then.

So, the small german population in central texas somehow makes Houston, Texas un-southern? There are german areas in Georgia too... I don't follow your logic.

[theermans426]

Originally Posted by houstoner

To add to the above, IME, white city parents are not avoiding kids of color by putting their kids into private schools, they're avoiding the poor schools they're zoned to. It's an issue more about academics and less about who their neighbors may be.

Wrong. Simply wrong.

As for the 30%white thing, what would that have to do with a whole lot? Since Houston exists in several different cultural cities that seldom interact why would it matter to me and my group, or to a black person and their group what the demographics are?

[tstone]

Originally Posted by theermans426

So, the small german population in central texas somehow makes Houston, Texas un-southern? There are german areas in Georgia too... I don't follow your logic.

The population of Houston was 1/3rd German in the 1800s:
German Texan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Czech/German roots run deep here, not just the Austin-SA area. Small example: ever find a kolache in Alabama, much less someone who knows what it is? What about ''Jak se mas'' bumper stickers? Anyway, you can look at this to see the breakdown by certain counties (and zip codes on C-D.)

http://www.davidlifferth.com/techblo...try-772440.jpg

Pretty crossroad-ish to me. Anglo American, African American (Southern - Fort Bend, Waller, Chambers, Liberty counties), German (Texan/midwestern - Montogmery and Galveston Counties) and Mexican (Southwest/Western - Harris and Brazoria Counties).

Look at the rest of the deep south. Anglo and African American predominance, and nothing else.

Religion:

Crossroads between the Baptist bible belt the Deep South is known for, but also in the Catholic belt that connects Southern Louisiana to Houston to San Antonio to the rest of the Southwest. The predominantly (midwestern-ish) Lutheran area isn't too far away from us, either:

http://files.blog-city.com/files/aa/17043/p/f/church_bodies.gif (broken link)

The rest of the deep south? Baptist, Baptist and more Baptist.

No one will argue that this area is Southern. However it is naive and short-sighted to think that is simply all we are.

[cjester]

it is a fact that societies, cities, states are always changing and evolving. By simply saying this state is southern doesn't mean a hell of beans. By being southern does it mean being a RED state today? Not long ago the north which is now considered blue used to vote predominantly republican (red) and Texas always voted democrac (blue).
To many the term southern is associated with the term provincial since in the past there wasn't much outside "blood" coming into the south.
50 or 60 years ago most immigrants settled in the north. They mostly settled in NY, Philadelphia, and Detroit. Very few foreigners went to Miss, GA, or even Texas. Now the exact opposite is occurring. Does that mean texas is becoming more northern now? and places like Detroit are becoming more southern?
And to what degree is a place southern? Is Atlanta more southern than Houston;
or Memphis maybe more southern than Atlanta and Houston combined? Do Memphis wins the blue ribbon? or the red ribbon?
One thing to remember is that the people make the city and the society. Today Houston is considered a hispanic city to a great extent as well as an African American city. It is also made up of a mixture of Anglos of many varieties and backgrounds. let's not forget the significant and important amount of Asian americans and Indian americans. In the end everyone influences each other. And who knows what new culture may develop in the near future in Houston. Let's not forget that the MAYORITY of students graduating from the University of Houston Downtown and from the flagship central campus are minorities. How are they going to change things?

College Search - University of Houston: Downtown - UHD - At a Glance (broken link)#
University of Houston

[Premont]

Of course the demographics of a city matter. It means we choose to live in the same city together. Maybe we're not holding hands all the time, but we're making a go of it and we're way ahead of a lot of other areas. The idea that we don't interact is nonsense. The city would shut down if we didn't interact and work together. Many of my teachers growing up at HISD were black. Our everyday lives are integrated. We also stepped up pretty good when New Orleans needed help. I don't think our city deserves to be labeled racist.

[theermans426]

Originally Posted by Premont

Of course the demographics of a city matter. It means we choose to live in the same city together. Maybe we're not holding hands all the time, but we're making a go of it and we're way ahead of a lot of other areas. They idea that we don't interact is nonsense. The city would shut down if we didn't interact and work together. Many of my teachers growing up at HISD were black. Our everyday lives are integrated. We also stepped up pretty good when New Orleans needed help. I don't think our city deserves to be labeled racist.

It's not racist, although there are racists of course.

As for the Southern/non-Southern argument - here are some obvious points

1) You mention german immigrants in the 1800's. While there may have been a certain point when this was true, this is hardly any kind of argument about anti-southernness when there was also a large slave population etc.

2) You mention the settlement patterns of the areas around the city show some massive diversity in the early days, however the two main groups in Texas up until the 1900s were white and black. In fact, in 1860 there were 600,000 residents in Texas and 200,000 of them were black slaves. This group only grew as fellow Southerners moved to the area. Even the hispanic population in Texas was small, about 7,000.

3) Settlement patterns: Texas was settled by Stephen F Austin and colonists with slaves, therefore it was patterned on the exact same economic structure as the rest of the South.

4) Slavery: common in Texas and accepted, even to the point that many believe the Texas revolution was to protect the institution

5) Cotton: plantations were common in Texas and I can give you a list of them to visit around Houston if you wish - Liendo in Hempstead, Varner Hogg in Angleton, Peach Point in Brazoria county etc.

6) Civil War: Texas was one of the most emphatic supporters of secession, voting something like 256 to 7(I cannot recall the exact numbers off the top of my head, but it was not close) second to only South Carolina I believe, so there was no real dissent in Texas. 90,000 Texans fought valiantly for the Southern cause and many were commended by Lee himself for their valor

7) Jim Crow: Texas was a full blown Jim Crow state until the 70's in some areas. HISD schools were not forcefully integrated until 1970

8) Weather, geography etc.: speak for themselves.

I refuse to go on and cite more obvious historical facts that show a type of "duh" conclusion.

I do agree that Houston has a diverse citizenship(even though the three MAIN cultures are black, white and mexican - with the others being much, much smaller and isolated) however, the notion that all three of these interact and function together is false in my experience as a born-and-raised Houstonian. The black community functions as a whole, the white folks(by and large) stick to their communities and circles and the mexicans(who are not assimilated, and there are many of hispanic descent that are as Texan/Southern/Americanized as anyone else, therefore negating the idea of a "different culture" meshing in Houston) usually stick together. However, there are many many people in Houston that have "bought into" the city, state and culture, or may have been born there and therefore do not qualify as a seperate culture any longer.

To act like Houston has no history, Southern background or culture is to be naive, blind to the past and possibly blind to all that surrounds you that you may not think supports your theories.

I would also like to know which of the posters on this site who claim a rich, diverse, inclusive, loving, non-southern Houston/Texas are truly native Texans or Houstonians... because the native Houstonians such as myself know about Houston, its history and have a vast, vast difference of opinion from many of you.

Is Houston "only Southern"? I'm not sure what that means. Does Southern mean that you must be white or black? Can third generation hispanics, indians or asians not be assimilated into Southern/Houston culture? Are you asserting the notion that the asians in Atlanta, Houston, Richmond etc. are not Southern, even if they are born here and completely americanized, eat BBQ, fried chicken and use Southern expressions and mannerisms, speak a little slower etc.? If so, you have a race-centered notion of what "southern" means and I believe that Southern is a culture and collection of foodways, mannerisms, attitudes, speech patterns and ways of life that endure no matter the skin color.

Atlanta is Southern, Houston is Southern, Memphis is Southern and New Orleans is Southern. Each one is different, has a different history and various big and small differences, but each is certainly southern. There are certain things that cannot be changed with PC grandstanding, cultured backslapping and willful blindness.

[theermans426]

Originally Posted by cjester

it is a fact that societies, cities, states are always changing and evolving. By simply saying this state is southern doesn't mean a hell of beans. By being southern does it mean being a RED state today? Not long ago the north which is now considered blue used to vote predominantly republican (red) and Texas always voted democrac (blue).
To many the term southern is associated with the term provincial since in the past there wasn't much outside "blood" coming into the south.
50 or 60 years ago most immigrants settled in the north. They mostly settled in NY, Philadelphia, and Detroit. Very few foreigners went to Miss, GA, or even Texas. Now the exact opposite is occurring. Does that mean texas is becoming more northern now? and places like Detroit are becoming more southern?
And to what degree is a place southern? Is Atlanta more southern than Houston;
or Memphis maybe more southern than Atlanta and Houston combined? Do Memphis wins the blue ribbon? or the red ribbon?
One thing to remember is that the people make the city and the society. Today Houston is considered a hispanic city to a great extent as well as an African American city. It is also made up of a mixture of Anglos of many varieties and backgrounds. let's not forget the significant and important amount of Asian americans and Indian americans. In the end everyone influences each other. And who knows what new culture may develop in the near future in Houston. Let's not forget that the MAYORITY of students graduating from the University of Houston Downtown and from the flagship central campus are minorities. How are they going to change things?

College Search - University of Houston: Downtown - UHD - At a Glance (broken link)#
University of Houston

Houston is "considered a hispanic city?" By whom? the black popuation? the white population?

How about the suburban folks in white and black suburbs who are constructively part of Greater Houston? Many to most of the hispanic population are illegal and truly do live in a subculture.

I do not, nor do many people consider Houston "a hispanic city" whatever that means. Are there many hispanics here? Yes. Does the city have a hispanic history, look and feel? No.

Houston proper may be largely hispanic in many areas and largely black in many areas, as well as largely white in many areas.

How many white/asian/hispanic etc. live in the 3rd, 5th and 4th wards? In homestead? Kashmere, east missouri city, Acres Homes?

How many white/black/asian live in the east end, denver harbor, south houston?

How many black/mexican live in river oaks, tanglewood, timbergrove, garden oaks, memorial, southern spring branch, new heights homes, memorial park area, clear lake, friendswood, katy, etc.?

Are there places where we all mix together? Yes. Are there many segregated race-specific neighborhoods? Yes. Do we all BBQ together and sing kumbaya? ummm, no.

[theermans426]

Originally Posted by tstone

The population of Houston was 1/3rd German in the 1800s:
German Texan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Czech/German roots run deep here, not just the Austin-SA area. Small example: ever find a kolache in Alabama, much less someone who knows what it is? What about ''Jak se mas'' bumper stickers? Anyway, you can look at this to see the breakdown by certain counties (and zip codes on C-D.)

http://www.davidlifferth.com/techblo...try-772440.jpg

Pretty crossroad-ish to me. Anglo American, African American (Southern - Fort Bend, Waller, Chambers, Liberty counties), German (Texan/midwestern - Montogmery and Galveston Counties) and Mexican (Southwest/Western - Harris and Brazoria Counties).

Look at the rest of the deep south. Anglo and African American predominance, and nothing else.

Religion:

Crossroads between the Baptist bible belt the Deep South is known for, but also in the Catholic belt that connects Southern Louisiana to Houston to San Antonio to the rest of the Southwest. The predominantly (midwestern-ish) Lutheran area isn't too far away from us, either:

http://files.blog-city.com/files/aa/17043/p/f/church_bodies.gif (broken link)

The rest of the deep south? Baptist, Baptist and more Baptist.

No one will argue that this area is Southern. However it is naive and short-sighted to think that is simply all we are.

Baptist is the largest denomination in Texas, outside of hispanic catholics.

Church of Christ is huge in Texas and the rest of the South.

Jak Se Mas? you mean the little czech stops in Texas? trying to stretch that into some huge part of Texas culture? Come on man.

Brazoria county was plantations and slaves, btw.

People in Alabama do know what kolaches are, and in Mississippi tamales are a regional favorite. You know little about Texas and the South as a whole. My guess is that you're a transplant.