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Old 11-18-2007, 10:08 AM
 
385 posts, read 1,551,062 times
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There seems to be a number of problems here: he was not defending his OWN life or property; he was told by police that they were en route or already there (not clear to me); the burglars did not stop when he told them to but they apparently offered him no harm. Even the police would not have been justified in shooting these burglars in the same situation. Lastly, there is the possibility that there was more to the story about what they were doing. Yes, it seems clear to you now but I can tell you from many years of experience in law enforcement, you would be surprised at what I have been told by perpetrators turns out to be true (i.e. we were playing a prank on their son, etc.). I do not know Texas law but if this is legal I would be shocked. On top of it all, the guy tells the dispatcher he is going out to "kill" them. Better choice of words would have been to "stop" them. He couldn't think clearly you say? Even more reason for him not to have a gun.

 
Old 11-18-2007, 10:27 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,509,977 times
Reputation: 5942
Quote:
Originally Posted by usc619 View Post
No, not a native Texan just a land/home owner ( I guess that's makes me just as much of an texan as anyone else )
I don't mean this in an insulting way or anything, but I thought so (that is, you not being a native Texan...or from the South in general). I am guessing you are probably a transplant from the North (or West Coast).

To cut the rind to the mellon, I really DO intend this (because we Texans are neighborly people) in the best of goodwill and spirit. But you are not a Texan. You are likely a yankee (by the way, that is NOT an insult. My childrens mother is a yankee) who has moved down here because of our climate, job opportunites, and more laid back life style. Right?

BUT..and I will NEVER understand it...you (third person sense, I am not really talking about "you") will want to change it back into the yankeeland which y'all ruined and fled. It MUST be a yankee thing...because I will just can't fathom it.

Now then, please, once again, define "progressive"?

Finally, I hope you will not take my remarks as personally offensive. This is just a conversation.
 
Old 11-18-2007, 10:42 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,509,977 times
Reputation: 5942
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimK View Post
There seems to be a number of problems here: he was not defending his OWN life or property; he was told by police that they were en route or already there (not clear to me); the burglars did not stop when he told them to but they apparently offered him no harm. Even the police would not have been justified in shooting these burglars in the same situation. Lastly, there is the possibility that there was more to the story about what they were doing. Yes, it seems clear to you now but I can tell you from many years of experience in law enforcement, you would be surprised at what I have been told by perpetrators turns out to be true (i.e. we were playing a prank on their son, etc.). I do not know Texas law but if this is legal I would be shocked. On top of it all, the guy tells the dispatcher he is going out to "kill" them. Better choice of words would have been to "stop" them. He couldn't think clearly you say? Even more reason for him not to have a gun.
Where are you from?

Yes, Texas law provides that a third party may use force and/or deadly force in defense of life and/or property (with, naturally, qualifying points).

If you have an objection to the fact (and I hasten to add that I am NOT saying you DO) that the penal code in Texas presumes that the perpetuator (burgler, robber, arsonist, rapist, common scumbag, etc) is in the wrong from the moment they invade/accost/violate? Then Texas is not the right place for you.

Down here, we fight back.
 
Old 11-18-2007, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Houston, TX
8,891 posts, read 19,875,808 times
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All I can say is "way to go Joe Horn!" Not that he killed them, just that he did something about "the trash." Honestly, if you are injured, maimed or even killed while committing a crime ... I don't care. These two put themselves on the wrong side of the law when they chose to go into someone's home to steal things that weren't theirs. What had there been a woman at home - stay-at-hope mom, a senior citizen, perhaps a latch-key child waiting for mom and dad to get home from work -- then what -- perhaps a bludgeoning with a crowbar? Had they gotten away - they would have been back to find more victims. What if those next victims had been seriously injured or killed - what if the next home burglarized had been yours or your neighbors - would you feel differently about them "getting away?" Yes it would have been great had the police arrived a few seconds earlier - before the guys went running away but they didn't a a neighbor intervened .... and what happened to the two guys - well it was pretty much their choice to put themselves in that situation, wasn't it? You put yourself on that side of the law - then honestly I don't care what happens.

Last edited by texas7; 11-18-2007 at 12:28 PM..
 
Old 11-18-2007, 11:11 AM
 
Location: San Antonio-Westover Hills
6,884 posts, read 20,320,635 times
Reputation: 5175
Quote:
Originally Posted by usc619 View Post
No, not a native Texan just a land/home owner ( I guess that's makes me just as much of an texan as anyone else )
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasReb
To cut the rind to the mellon, I really DO intend this (because we Texans are neighborly people) in the best of goodwill and spirit. But you are not a Texan. You are likely a yankee (by the way, that is NOT an insult.

I recall a thread in the Texas forum just recently where we ALL agreed our forefathers were not Texans by birth and that being Texan is a mindset, a pride of where you live, with very little to do with where you are actually from. I guess that only works if you think a certain way.

TexasReb, I appreciate your position and agree that we, as Texans, do fight back--that's our spirit, our nature--but we should not take the law into our own hands when it suits us. I would totally feel differently about this case if I even felt for one second Mr. Horn was truly in danger at any time. He had a choice, and if what we are hearing about the Castle Doctrine is correct, he probably made the wrong one, at least by law. He chose to go outside, retrieve his gun from his car, and shoot these men down like dogs without regard to the 911 dispatcher's orders or even the law. No one can seem to answer why he couldn't have shot these men in the leg or feet or any other non-life threatening body part. He admitted he is a hunter, adept with a shotgun, so what's the reasoning there? The answer is there is none. He was going to murder these two men no matter what anyone said--and that is what is wrong here. Whether these guys were thugs or whether he was justified is a matter of opinion, not a matter of law. Again, he will most likely never see jail time, and for a lot of people, that's okay. For me, that's okay. But let's CLARIFY the law, then. Let's make sure we are crystal-clear on what we can and can't do with our property and our weapons.
 
Old 11-18-2007, 11:27 AM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,509,977 times
Reputation: 5942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs View Post
I recall a thread in the Texas forum just recently where we ALL agreed our forefathers were not Texans by birth and that being Texan is a mindset, a pride of where you live, with very little to do with where you are actually from. I guess that only works if you think a certain way.

TexasReb, I appreciate your position and agree that we, as Texans, do fight back--that's our spirit, our nature--but we should not take the law into our own hands when it suits us. I would totally feel differently about this case if I even felt for one second Mr. Horn was truly in danger at any time. He had a choice, and if what we are hearing about the Castle Doctrine is correct, he probably made the wrong one, at least by law. He chose to go outside, retrieve his gun from his car, and shoot these men down like dogs without regard to the 911 dispatcher's orders or even the law. No one can seem to answer why he couldn't have shot these men in the leg or feet or any other non-life threatening body part. He admitted he is a hunter, adept with a shotgun, so what's the reasoning there? The answer is there is none. He was going to murder these two men no matter what anyone said--and that is what is wrong here. Whether these guys were thugs or whether he was justified is a matter of opinion, not a matter of law. Again, he will most likely never see jail time, and for a lot of people, that's okay. For me, that's okay. But let's CLARIFY the law, then. Let's make sure we are crystal-clear on what we can and can't do with our property and our weapons.

Thank you in turn for a very courteous and civil reply!

Where we part company, though, is over a terminology that he "murdered" the burglers. Until he is actually indicted and/or convicted then he is NOT guilty of "murder." And if I were on the jury, he never will be.

Now, I DO agree that the circumstances seem to be VERY iffy, so far as the right to use deadly force to protect a third party's property. Still, I am prone to take HIS side over the criminals. And let's do NOT lose sight of the fact that that is EXACTLY what they were. Scum. Who had a long history of criminal activity and violating the laws of society.

Believe me, those filth would violate and terrorize and hurt you and yours as quick as the bear does business in the woods. Shot them down like dogs? That is exactly what they were. Or roaches that should have been stomped on long ago. Am I wrong?
 
Old 11-18-2007, 11:36 AM
 
Location: San Antonio-Westover Hills
6,884 posts, read 20,320,635 times
Reputation: 5175
Well, you have a point, they were no doubt vermin. Perhaps my analogy was ill-used.

Do you think the police would have shot them down in the same manner?

If it's okay to shoot down burglars in the street, then why don't we do so on an everyday basis? Why do we bother with a judge or jury? Why do we even have police officers? These are the questions that have to be asked if we're going to have vigilantes bypass law enforcement and take care of things themselves.

Mr. Horn would have been much better off right now had he never called 911 in the first place, it would seem.
 
Old 11-18-2007, 12:08 PM
 
385 posts, read 1,551,062 times
Reputation: 205
Often these threads devolve into, "where are you from" or "you are not one of us" kind of thing. Why is that? I have news. It does not matter where I am from as I am merely giving my opinion. Also, as a law enforcement officer in any state in the union, I would not have been able to go up to two burglars, not seeing any weapons, and say, stop you are under arrest and then shoot them when they begin to flee. Even when they run, I would have had to (and have done many times)run after them, tackle them and take them into custody. At no time, would I have been justified in shooting them unless they presented some type of weapon that could kill me or took my weapons. And, as for the theories on "winging" them in the arms or legs, it doesn't work that way. You shoot to kill. Winging them is for Buffalo Bill. It takes a talent police do not train for oddly enough. That is the problem with this vigilantism. You need to begin as a citiizenry who wants to be armed to do all the things police do when police are not on scene quickly enough to train day in and day out and in some cases for twenty years. You need to think every free moment of your work day, what if this happens, what will I do. You don't do that because it is not your job. You don't have time. So to merely arm yourself and in a moments notice make the decision to run out of your house into potentially harms way, for what purpose, is simply misguided. He should plead insanity. These actions, I have always felt, trivializes the job of policing. Its so easy to just take the law into your own hands. It is not easy. It is not an easy job. Here is a question for you: what if he had had a long running battle with this neighbor over some neighbor problem. Would he have been so quick to act? UMMMMM. Now, I have seen a neighbor problem devolve to the point where one had called the police so many times on his neighbor's noise. Nothing was done for years because nothing could be done legally. So, one beautiful day, the disgruntled neighbor walked over to the man's open garage where 17 people were having a party. He had a gun and shot several and killed two. Now, that should be okay, right? Nobody was doing anything about this man's problem with noise. That is the point- where does the line get drawn here? It is very complex and probably not for these types of postings but I do ask you (the royal you) to just think about some of this a bit. As for where I am from, I am a U.S. citizen by birth.
 
Old 11-18-2007, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Katy,TX.
4,244 posts, read 8,702,141 times
Reputation: 4014
Quote:
Originally Posted by KimK View Post
Often these threads devolve into, "where are you from" or "you are not one of us" kind of thing. Why is that? I have news. It does not matter where I am from as I am merely giving my opinion. Also, as a law enforcement officer in any state in the union, I would not have been able to go up to two burglars, not seeing any weapons, and say, stop you are under arrest and then shoot them when they begin to flee. Even when they run, I would have had to (and have done many times)run after them, tackle them and take them into custody. At no time, would I have been justified in shooting them unless they presented some type of weapon that could kill me or took my weapons. And, as for the theories on "winging" them in the arms or legs, it doesn't work that way. You shoot to kill. Winging them is for Buffalo Bill. It takes a talent police do not train for oddly enough. That is the problem with this vigilantism. You need to begin as a citiizenry who wants to be armed to do all the things police do when police are not on scene quickly enough to train day in and day out and in some cases for twenty years. You need to think every free moment of your work day, what if this happens, what will I do. You don't do that because it is not your job. You don't have time. So to merely arm yourself and in a moments notice make the decision to run out of your house into potentially harms way, for what purpose, is simply misguided. He should plead insanity. These actions, I have always felt, trivializes the job of policing. Its so easy to just take the law into your own hands. It is not easy. It is not an easy job. Here is a question for you: what if he had had a long running battle with this neighbor over some neighbor problem. Would he have been so quick to act? UMMMMM. Now, I have seen a neighbor problem devolve to the point where one had called the police so many times on his neighbor's noise. Nothing was done for years because nothing could be done legally. So, one beautiful day, the disgruntled neighbor walked over to the man's open garage where 17 people were having a party. He had a gun and shot several and killed two. Now, that should be okay, right? Nobody was doing anything about this man's problem with noise. That is the point- where does the line get drawn here? It is very complex and probably not for these types of postings but I do ask you (the royal you) to just think about some of this a bit. As for where I am from, I am a U.S. citizen by birth.
Good post and well stated.
FYI, my brother (SDPD) always tell me "they shoot to kill" when I use to ask about how come they don't disable the perpetrator.
 
Old 11-18-2007, 12:21 PM
 
10,238 posts, read 19,509,977 times
Reputation: 5942
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mom2Feebs View Post
Well, you have a point, they were no doubt vermin. Perhaps my analogy was ill-used.

Do you think the police would have shot them down in the same manner?

If it's okay to shoot down burglars in the street, then why don't we do so on an everyday basis? Why do we bother with a judge or jury? Why do we even have police officers? These are the questions that have to be asked if we're going to have vigilantes bypass law enforcement and take care of things themselves.

Mr. Horn would have been much better off right now had he never called 911 in the first place, it would seem.

Probably not (police, that is). But you have to remember, the police act as, and are intended to be, a preventive and investigative entity. The Supreme Court has ruled that they (meaning law enforcement officers) have no obligation to "protect" any one individual. Therefore, one HAS to protect themselves. And thank God for Texas laws in that regard.

Ok to shoot burglers in the street? Oh, c'mon. This is ad absurdem. And? Please define "vigilantes"?
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