More palm trees in Houston? (Sugar Land, Galveston: university, moving, yard)

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA

A large part of Houston's heat island comes more from too much concrete sprawl than from any supposed lack of shade trees; more focus on mass-transit, and less on the auto, can easily make a significant difference in regards to this.

I fully agree with your point about the impact of sprawl and concrete on the heat island effect (don't forget building roofs also, for which there are also mitigation measures). The more we become a pedestrian-friendly city, the less need there is for parking lots and garages. This is good. However, if anything, this trend places even more importance on the pedestrian streetscape, including the selection of street trees whose most important function in Houston is as a shade device and heat island mitigation during hot months. Thus we can both agree that skinny palms (and trimmed crape myrtles) are totally inappropriate for this function, and any aesthetic appeal some might find in for that type of vegetation is completely irrelevant to that purpose.

[Gunion Powder]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

You are wrong, shade still makes a big difference by keeping direct sunlight from heating the ground (especially pavement), which is then re-radiated as heat; shade is known to drop the immediate air temperature by several degrees even on the hottest most humid days.

Well, it's the reverse, actually. The temperature you feel in the shade is the actual air temperature (counting humidity). Solar radiation from the sun makes the air feel hotter than it is.

You still haven't answered my second question.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA

But the fact that they are natural proves that they aren't out of place at all, so once again, your arguments against palms just boil down to the fact that they are natural. Even non-native species of palm have been naturalizing in the Houston area.

Natural palms grow in Houston all over the metro; go to the Piney Woods forests in the northern parts, and you see palmettos growing naturally in the under-story. Same goes for bottomland forests throughout the metro, such as at Armand Bayou, along the Buffalo Bayou, etc. Just any pristine area in the Houston metro will have them growing naturally in stands. Because they are confined to the under-story, and because of how thick the forests are in those areas of Houston, it can be hard to find stands of palms growing. But make no mistake; they are there.

Along the Brazos River, from Fort Bend to Brazoria Country, is an entire subtropical jungle, filled with massive live oaks, elms, yaupons, and colorful vines and flowers all about, including jessamime, and beautyberry. These forests along the Brazos in Houston are home to an entire species of palm found nowhere else on the planet:
http://www.mapress.com/phytotaxa/con...t00027p025.pdf

Brazos Bend State Park encompasses but a portion of these bottomland forest areas, which run close to many key suburbs, including Sienna Plantation, Sugar Land, Missouri City, etc.

First, it's not an argument, it's an opinion as stated in my post that you quoted.
I'll say it again... NATURAL OR NOT, they look out of place TO ME. Especially lining a street in downtown. And therefore i voted no more palms. You can go on an on about how some palm species are native here but it makes no difference to me and this doesn't change my opinion.
Driving or walking around, I don't see them because as you stated, they must be hiding under/within all the other trees which are much more plentiful in Houston. I don't see them along the bayous either.

So yeah... definitely out of place in Houston.

[Gunion Powder]

Well, everyone has opinions, but some just aren't worth hearing (reading).

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by Gunion Powder

Well, everyone has opinions, but some just aren't worth hearing (reading).

Because they do not agree with your opinion.
Which is all comments like this are... opinion.
"Palms are beautiful trees. Most people think so. More of them in the city would improve Houston's image, just as they did for LA."
You started this thread by asking a question and you didn't get the overwhelming answer you were looking for. Interesting.

[Gunion Powder]

Originally Posted by d2mini

Because they do not agree with your opinion.
Which is all comments like this are... opinion.
"Palms are beautiful trees. Most people think so. More of them in the city would improve Houston's image, just as they did for LA."
You started this thread by asking a question and you didn't get the overwhelming answer you were looking for. Interesting.

I wasn't fishing for agreement at all.

If you, LocalPanner, and curbur would have simply said "no, I don't care for palms" and left it that, I would have no issue with your opinion. The problem is when you tried to support these opinions with illogically biased nonsense.

[d2mini]

Originally Posted by Gunion Powder

I wasn't fishing for agreement at all.

If you, LocalPanner, and curbur would have simply said "no, I don't care for palms" and left it that, I would have no issue with your opinion. The problem is when you tried to support these opinions with illogically biased nonsense.

No, what happened is you just don't agree with those who hold a different opinion and felt the need to argue it.
Please explain how a differing opinion is "illogically based nonsense"?
As previously pointed out, the whole topic is completely subjective. Neither you or I or anyone else here is "correct" when it comes to the original question, or many of the reasons why we came to either conclusion.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by Gunion Powder

Well, it's the reverse, actually. The temperature you feel in the shade is the actual air temperature (counting humidity). Solar radiation from the sun makes the air feel hotter than it is.

You still haven't answered my second question.

On the first point, you are correct in that the shade temperature is the true temperature. Are you saying that somehow invalidates my point? Because it supports it.

Sorry about forgetting the second question. Many oak trees have quite substantial foliage and sufficient canopy to be great shade trees. Heck, just look at live oaks (sort of an extreme example) - though I don't recommend them as sidewalk / street trees or near paved surfaces or building foundations due to the ill effects of their aggressively spreading root systems. Other oaks, such as water oaks and shumards, are wonderful shade trees, as are magnolias, and I'm not aware of live oak-type root problems. One negative about magnolias is that they can be quite messy in terms of droppings during part of the year - but of course, oaks drop acorns too, and deciduous trees generally drop their leaves at some point.

[Yn0hTnA]

Originally Posted by LocalPlanner

I fully agree with your point about the impact of sprawl and concrete on the heat island effect (don't forget building roofs also, for which there are also mitigation measures). The more we become a pedestrian-friendly city, the less need there is for parking lots and garages. This is good. However, if anything, this trend places even more importance on the pedestrian streetscape, including the selection of street trees whose most important function in Houston is as a shade device and heat island mitigation during hot months. Thus we can both agree that skinny palms (and trimmed crape myrtles) are totally inappropriate for this function, and any aesthetic appeal some might find in for that type of vegetation is completely irrelevant to that purpose.

The shade argument is pretty much the closest thing to a legitimate argument against the use of palm trees for landscaping in Houston; even then, it still doesn't hold in the end, because no one is suggesting that palms be the only trees that are used for landscaping.

Originally Posted by d2mini

First, it's not an argument, it's an opinion as stated in my post that you quoted.
I'll say it again... NATURAL OR NOT, they look out of place TO ME. Especially lining a street in downtown. And therefore i voted no more palms. You can go on an on about how some palm species are native here but it makes no difference to me and this doesn't change my opinion.
Driving or walking around, I don't see them because as you stated, they must be hiding under/within all the other trees which are much more plentiful in Houston. I don't see them along the bayous either.

So yeah... definitely out of place in Houston.

And the fact that palms look unnatural to you (even after it was shown that quite a few species were native to Houston) is completely illustrative of the preconceived notions you have of them. That is, you, like many others, fall for the fallacy that palms are exclusively tropical coastal plants; get that myth out of your head, and you would understand what I am arguing for. Honestly, if any plants in Houston looks out of place, it would be some of the deciduous trees people plant in yards, just because they want fall color.

The palms are hiding under the trees, but it doesn't mean they aren't plentiful; like I said, the palms in the pine and bottomland forests throughout the Houston area are UNDERSTORY trees. That means you actually have to brush past THICK vegetation to see the numerous palms that do exist. Actually travel through the pristine natural areas of Armand Bayou, the pine forests in the northern metro, the Brazos river forests (from Sugar Land down to Lake Jackson), and numerous other bottom-land forests throughout the metro area, then get back to me.

You can see even the non-native palm species growing like weeds in vacant lots, through cracks in tennis courts, etc in many parts of the Houston area; that illustrates how at home several palm species are in Houston, as they have completely naturalized in the area. Your opinion is, thus, invalid.

[LocalPlanner]

Originally Posted by Yn0hTnA

The shade argument is pretty much the closest thing to a legitimate argument against the use of palm trees for landscaping in Houston; even then, it still doesn't hold in the end, because no one is suggesting that palms be the only trees that are used for landscaping.

While I am personally not fond of taller palms in landscaping, I am not criticizing their use as an secondary accent plant amongst other leafier subtropical vegetation. I am stating the truth they they are totally inappropriate for use as street trees in Houston, particularly if they are the primary tree used for this function.