How should public transport be done in Sugar Land? (Houston: low income, for sale)

[Vicman]

I think it's time for Sugar Land, Texas to get public transportation.

With Minute Maid being headquartered there, Schlumberger with significant offices there, and with other businesses moving in, Sugar Land is becoming a city of its own. For the convenience of its residents it needs public transportation.

But the question is: How to do it.
*Should Sugar Land join METRO? Or should it found its own transit agency?
*Should the high schools within the city limits (Clements, Dulles, Kempner) be served by transit stops?
*Should the libraries in the city limits (Sugar Land, Mamie George, First Colony) be served?
*Should the airport be served?
*How should it connect with services to Houston and Missouri City?
*Should it convince Stafford, TX to join the agency that it is a part of?

[predatorprey]

Sugar land is heavily dependent on the 2% sales tax to finance their budget. Joining metro would add another 2% to that. That would not only hurt SGL growth, but stifle any new businesses that would join sgl.

I do not believe sugar land should join metro since metro likes to **** away money on transit methods that are not effective.

I think sugarland can partner up with metro to provide park and rides for commuting purposes and not for any thing else. Rail service is a joke and a money pit that sgl should not join.

[Vicman]

Originally Posted by predatorprey

I think sugarland can partner up with metro to provide park and rides for commuting purposes and not for any thing else. Rail service is a joke and a money pit that sgl should not join.

By rail service do you mean a "light rail" service or do you mean a "commuter rail" type service?

I don't think the former is very appropriate for Sugar Land; Light rail is best for highly urbanized corridors (i.e. Texas Medical Center and Downtown areas in central Houston - yes, I have taken the METRO Light Rail and I see a lot of traffic on it). Light rail works fine inside 610 and possibly in Uptown, but I don't think it would be good for Sugar Land. However commuter rail would serve the same purpose as a park and ride.

I think that at least the Schlumberger and Minute Maid complexes should be served by the transit networks too, somehow. But how should they be connected to their employee bases?

[Poltracker]

Keep in mind, access to bus service mny times = more crime and apartment complexes/neighborhoods going down hill. If you don't believe me, go all the way back to the 70's and trace the expansion of Metro into the outer communities and look at the decline of those communities. Given that it wasn't the only factor, but it was a major one. For example, look at the history of the Greenspoint area and then Alief.

Stick with a Park N Ride or similar set up. I doubt Sugarland would set up its own service as public transport is a cash cow that cannot support itself.

[Vicman]

Hm, I think what really got down Alief and parts of the northside was really the glut of low income apartments. Keep in mind the Memorial Villages, Bellaire, West U, and River Oaks all have METRO and they have spotless crime rates.

I think a park and ride would work to start. After discussing this here and at HAIF, maybe in addition have only one bus route to serve blue collar service workers at Minute Maid, Schlumberger, and/or the Sugar Land Airport.

Originally Posted by Poltracker

Keep in mind, access to bus service mny times = more crime and apartment complexes/neighborhoods going down hill. If you don't believe me, go all the way back to the 70's and trace the expansion of Metro into the outer communities and look at the decline of those communities. Given that it wasn't the only factor, but it was a major one. For example, look at the history of the Greenspoint area and then Alief.

Stick with a Park N Ride or similar set up. I doubt Sugarland would set up its own service as public transport is a cash cow that cannot support itself.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by Poltracker

Keep in mind, access to bus service mny times = more crime and apartment complexes/neighborhoods going down hill. If you don't believe me, go all the way back to the 70's and trace the expansion of Metro into the outer communities and look at the decline of those communities.

How's holding out against public transportation working out in Pearland? Have you heard? Either it's not working or this whole crime wave thing down there is blown out of proportion.

What happened in the 70s and thereafter was part of a boom/bust process where Houston was growing and rapidly annexing outlying territory only for things to fall apart in the 80s. The problems were a lot bigger than the expansion of public transportation, considering the city was trying to provide police coverage for what it had just annexed.

For as much as this argument gets made nobody seems to actually have any evidence that public transportation inherently spreads crime any more than the availability of automobiles and roads to drive them. Not that I do this kind of stuff, but if I was going to kick in your door and steal your TV, I'm not riding a dadgum train. Or a bus for that matter. There are cameras on the buses and trains. So I'm boarding the bus carrying your TV, and what's it going to be? "Uh, yeah, I just bought this at Sears." Whatever. If I tried that I'd end up on America's Dumbest Criminals. Burglars and the like don't even use public transit as a means of getting around to their targets in the movies ferchrissakes.

Sugar Land already has an artery for drug/human trafficking, Latin American gang members passing through and much more coming from south of the border. It's called U.S. Highway 59. I don't know why anyone's so spooked about a freaking rail line.

[SilverWings]

I vote for free limosine service for all SL residents.

[Vicman]

Maybe the first step would be to start a park and ride near Sugar Land City Hall - I'm not sure where available land is, though.

Maybe there could be these routes:
* Extend the U.S. 59 corridor Park and Ride services to Schlumberger and Sugar Land City Hall
* A local service going from Sugar Land City Hall -> Schlumberger -> Sugar Land Airport -> Sugar Land City Hall (and the reverse)
* A local service following the U.S. 59 corridor to connect Sugar Land City Hall and Schlumberger with southwest Houston

Would there be enough demand to connect Sugar Land to the Westchase area? How many Sugar Land residents are employed in Westchase?

Regarding the crime, many unincorporated areas of Harris County in the north and northwest are finding problems with crime

Originally Posted by SilverWings

I vote for free limosine service for all SL residents.

Maybe if the tooth fairy turned out to be real

[Poltracker]

Originally Posted by jfre81

How's holding out against public transportation working out in Pearland? Have you heard? Either it's not working or this whole crime wave thing down there is blown out of proportion.

What happened in the 70s and thereafter was part of a boom/bust process where Houston was growing and rapidly annexing outlying territory only for things to fall apart in the 80s. The problems were a lot bigger than the expansion of public transportation, considering the city was trying to provide police coverage for what it had just annexed.

For as much as this argument gets made nobody seems to actually have any evidence that public transportation inherently spreads crime any more than the availability of automobiles and roads to drive them. Not that I do this kind of stuff, but if I was going to kick in your door and steal your TV, I'm not riding a dadgum train. Or a bus for that matter. There are cameras on the buses and trains. So I'm boarding the bus carrying your TV, and what's it going to be? "Uh, yeah, I just bought this at Sears." Whatever. If I tried that I'd end up on America's Dumbest Criminals. Burglars and the like don't even use public transit as a means of getting around to their targets in the movies ferchrissakes.

Sugar Land already has an artery for drug/human trafficking, Latin American gang members passing through and much more coming from south of the border. It's called U.S. Highway 59. I don't know why anyone's so spooked about a freaking rail line.

Having grown up there, I watched it happen. The apartments near my neighborhood were orginally very nice and housed working professionals (a lot of IAH workers and the like). In an over simplification when the busses came, more low income folks moved into those apartments and the problem began and expanded. They did not have to ride busses to rob folks. While the parents rode busses to work (maybe) the teenage and unemployed element started preying on the neighborhoods around them. Te bus network gave them a foothold. Yes, the fact that busses were available also led to the construction of low income housing and conversion of units to low income housing when those were full and the neighborhood started the decline. The boom bust issues certainly contributed, but the busses had a lot to do with it too. It is still happening now if you look toward the 1960 corridor where the busses have expanded (Ella and the like). Sure folks on the outside can look at the situation and say the cause was such and such but for the folks that lived there and watched it happen, we know what started the problem. Comparing upper income neighborhoods like River Oaks to middle class neighborhoods (at the time) is not a fair comparison.

[Vicman]

Even if the extension of bus lines contributed to the apartment complex overbuilding, I don't see how that would happen in Sugar Land; Sugar Land has strict zoning and the City Hall wouldn't want to rezone any areas for abundances of apartment complexes. In addition I believe much of the city is already built-out with developed properties around City Hall, Schlumberger, and the airport.

The scenario you envisioned is more likely to happen in unincorporated Harris County.

As for comparison to West U, the median housing prices in some areas of Sugar Land are similar. The one home I found for sale in First Colony, 5219 Cook Lane, is over one million dollars.

Originally Posted by Poltracker

Having grown up there, I watched it happen. The apartments near my neighborhood were orginally very nice and housed working professionals (a lot of IAH workers and the like). In an over simplification when the busses came, more low income folks moved into those apartments and the problem began and expanded. They did not have to ride busses to rob folks. While the parents rode busses to work (maybe) the teenage and unemployed element started preying on the neighborhoods around them. Te bus network gave them a foothold. Yes, the fact that busses were available also led to the construction of low income housing and conversion of units to low income housing when those were full and the neighborhood started the decline. The boom bust issues certainly contributed, but the busses had a lot to do with it too. It is still happening now if you look toward the 1960 corridor where the busses have expanded (Ella and the like). Sure folks on the outside can look at the situation and say the cause was such and such but for the folks that lived there and watched it happen, we know what started the problem. Comparing upper income neighborhoods like River Oaks to middle class neighborhoods (at the time) is not a fair comparison.