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Old 03-22-2013, 07:15 AM
 
1,363 posts, read 1,264,972 times
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+1 to dsb62574
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:34 AM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,118,313 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsb62574 View Post
Since that has been settled, we now must turn attention to the obviously flawed information that purports that the Ivy League Universities are schools with more academic rigor than WVU. It is simply another conspiracy of national proportions supported by useless fact and data that can be manipulated.

(These are actual strawman and hasty generalization fallacies similar to those which permeate the posts of Cry Havoc. I wanted to provide examples to better facilitate his ability to distinguish actual literary fallacies in the future.)

Hear is the truth:

NCWV, Charleston, and Huntington all have laudable attributes, but no argument will alter facts. As hard as you try, the census is an official, decennial, constitutionally mandated snapshot regarding the population. The methodology is defined at the start of the data collection independent of results--not altered after on a national level to make Huntington look larger. Census data are an essential part of business strategy and planning. It is a tool utilized by corporations for social science purposes, economic data, and as the foundation of customized reports on a specific area of the population.
Nobody said the methodology was done for Huntington. In fact several times I said it wasnt. It was done by bureaucrats at the national level for their own goals and just happened to effect Huntington.

Like I said watch that South Park episode. It is a similar situation. I am not trying to make you feel bad about a non-achievement you were proud of but the fact remains that this is all meaningless.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,268 posts, read 584,833 times
Reputation: 1460
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Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
Nobody said the methodology was done for Huntington. In fact several times I said it wasnt. It was done by bureaucrats at the national level for their own goals and just happened to effect Huntington.

Like I said watch that South Park episode. It is a similar situation. I am not trying to make you feel bad about a non-achievement you were proud of but the fact remains that this is all meaningless.
I don't feel bad at all. I am not bothered by Huntington-Ashland having a larger MSA. (FYI: This is an ad hominem fallacy--you are learning to switch it up. Good for you!) Since graduating from graduate school from The Ohio State University, I have lived in Columbus, Ohio. I did attend Marshall for my undergraduate degree and have family in the Southern Ohio area.

What you may or may not personally feel about a census is irrelevant. According to the data, the Huntington-Ashland MSA is the largest in the State of West Virginia; Charleston is second. I too am not trying to make you feel bad with actual information.

You can debate the map, make disparaging comments, and attempt to inflate the population of your personal choice all you want: it changes nothing within the actual census. No, even South Park can't do that. You may wish to refer to credible scholarly sources for real information. Cartoons (yes, even those meant for adults) have a tendency to not be accurate and well referenced.
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Old 03-22-2013, 04:19 PM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,118,313 times
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Originally Posted by dsb62574 View Post
I don't feel bad at all. I am not bothered by Huntington-Ashland having a larger MSA. (FYI: This is an ad hominem fallacy--you are learning to switch it up. Good for you!) Since graduating from graduate school from The Ohio State University, I have lived in Columbus, Ohio. I did attend Marshall for my undergraduate degree and have family in the Southern Ohio area.

What you may or may not personally feel about a census is irrelevant. According to the data, the Huntington-Ashland MSA is the largest in the State of West Virginia; Charleston is second. I too am not trying to make you feel bad with actual information.

You can debate the map, make disparaging comments, and attempt to inflate the population of your personal choice all you want: it changes nothing within the actual census. No, even South Park can't do that. You may wish to refer to credible scholarly sources for real information. Cartoons (yes, even those meant for adults) have a tendency to not be accurate and well referenced.
Nobody disputes the size of the MSA's. I am merely stating they are irrelevant and not reflective of anything. It is just bureaucrats making things up. So if you feel good about some imaginary classification some pencilneck in the DC area just made up good for you. Like I said watch the South Park it is frighteningly realistic on this subject. Huntington is the biggest MSA in WV in the same way that Pizza is a vegetable according to the US government.

If you want more scholarly sources talk to Tbailey. He posted an awesome source that showed I was right and there is no type of consistent criteria or methodology to these census's and they often completely change every few years. Coming from Marshall you might not be able to understand this, but perhaps Ohio State was able to undo the damage.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:27 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,268 posts, read 584,833 times
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If you think the census is irrelevant to marketing and business strategy, I am positive Marshall University gave me a superior undergraduate business education that was reinforced by obtaining an MBA from Ohio State. Your personal attacks fall short with me--mostly because I realize you are ill informed and beholden to your inherent Appalachian culture of isolationism (even when discussing regional areas). As stated previously, much of WV has attributes that have a tremendous amount to offer. It is counter productive for any region to posture themselves as superior. The state, small cities, local areas, and all the institutions of higher learning are largely viewed as lagging nationally. Personally, I do not feel that is true, yet it does not change this reality. On a national forum read by outsiders, it might be a good idea to support one another.

As for the source offered by Tbailey, it was informative. When those with adequate levels of reading comprehension review the material, it is easy to discern that census methodology is determined PRIOR to implementation. Numbers and regions are not changed AFTER data is collected. This rules out the conspiracy of manipulation by politicians and the use of irrelevant counting methods (sorry South Park). I know you never actually expected anyone to read the data and hoped that a repetition of falsehood would render your opinion valid, yet critical evaluation is part of a public forum. I know I only have a degree from MU and tOSU (a REAL nationally ranked academic institution of higher learning), but these are basic skills. For your sake, I hope your education equipped you with the same tools. I have challenged you by utilizing the Socratic method and found your logic wanting. The answer is there for your understanding, but I will no longer engage you in discourse to facilitate your grasp of the material. To continue along this vein is disrespectful to the Huntington posters and readers of this thread.

For Huntington posters on the forum, I am sorry for hi-jacking a discussion meant for positive information regarding your area. Throughout West Virginia there are many wonderful people, places, and communities; it is disheartening to see some so consumed with perceived inferiority that they must malign members of their own populace. After reading this post and the other about the under educated people in Southern West Virginia by pseudo-intellectuals, I felt compelled to respond.

After my visit to Huntington this week, I think the area is on the right course for future growth and success. You truly have a nice community with a unique nostalgic charm that seamlessly blends the old and new. Since my days at Marshall, Huntington has changed tremendously. It was a pleasure to see the growth of my alma mater and experience the long forgotten hospitality of the citizens of Huntington and Charleston. As most of my ties to the community are gone and my career and family are demanding on my personal time, I rarely have the opportunity visit; however, myself and my family thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. I hope Huntington continues to experience an economic resurgence, and I wish the best for your beautiful state. As Eleanor Roosevelt eloquently stated, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent". There is no reason for West Virginians to feel inferior--regardless of your location within the state's boundaries.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:39 PM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,118,313 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsb62574 View Post
If you think the census is irrelevant to marketing and business strategy, I am positive Marshall University gave me a superior undergraduate business education that was reinforced by obtaining an MBA from Ohio State. Your personal attacks fall short with me--mostly because I realize you are ill informed and beholden to your inherent Appalachian culture of isolationism (even when discussing regional areas). As stated previously, much of WV has attributes that have a tremendous amount to offer. It is counter productive for any region to posture themselves as superior. The state, small cities, local areas, and all the institutions of higher learning are largely viewed as lagging nationally. Personally, I do not feel that is true, yet it does not change this reality. On a national forum read by outsiders, it might be a good idea to support one another.

As for the source offered by Tbailey, it was informative. When those with adequate levels of reading comprehension review the material, it is easy to discern that census methodology is determined PRIOR to implementation. Numbers and regions are not changed AFTER data is collected. This rules out the conspiracy of manipulation by politicians and the use of irrelevant counting methods (sorry South Park). I know you never actually expected anyone to read the data and hoped that a repetition of falsehood would render your opinion valid, yet critical evaluation is part of a public forum. I know I only have a degree from MU and tOSU (a REAL nationally ranked academic institution of higher learning), but these are basic skills. For your sake, I hope your education equipped you with the same tools. I have challenged you by utilizing the Socratic method and found your logic wanting. The answer is there for your understanding, but I will no longer engage you in discourse to facilitate your grasp of the material. To continue along this vein is disrespectful to the Huntington posters and readers of this thread.

For Huntington posters on the forum, I am sorry for hi-jacking a discussion meant for positive information regarding your area. Throughout West Virginia there are many wonderful people, places, and communities; it is disheartening to see some so consumed with perceived inferiority that they must malign members of their own populace. After reading this post and the other about the under educated people in Southern West Virginia by pseudo-intellectuals, I felt compelled to respond.

After my visit to Huntington this week, I think the area is on the right course for future growth and success. You truly have a nice community with a unique nostalgic charm that seamlessly blends the old and new. Since my days at Marshall, Huntington has changed tremendously. It was a pleasure to see the growth of my alma mater and experience the long forgotten hospitality of the citizens of Huntington and Charleston. As most of my ties to the community are gone and my career and family are demanding on my personal time, I rarely have the opportunity visit; however, myself and my family thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. I hope Huntington continues to experience an economic resurgence, and I wish the best for your beautiful state. As Eleanor Roosevelt eloquently stated, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent". There is no reason for West Virginians to feel inferior--regardless of your location within the state's boundaries.
Your first sentence doesnt even make sense. You make a setup about the census than go on some rant about Marshall. Is that what passes for a discussion at MArshall?

Quote:
If you think the census is irrelevant to marketing and business strategy, I am positive Marshall University gave me a superior undergraduate business education that was reinforced by obtaining an MBA from Ohio State.
Per Tbaileys source there is no criteria or methodology that they just cant make up and change as they want. In fact they even list all the times they changed it, which is very frequently.

The rest of your argument against me is then logical fallacies against me, mostly stawmen and personal attacks, which is hypocritical of you too since you tried to call me out for doing this although I didnt do this. I am not sure what they teach at Marshall, but not addressing the topic and ignoring logic and real data and resorting to hurling insults is not a way to have a discussion. Literally, you added nothing to the discussion. You just said, "what you said is not true and you are jealous blah blah."

My points stand.

Marshall probably has changed a lot since you left. It probably lost at least 10,000 people, the unemployment rate probably went up a few points, and the obesity rate too went up.

Like I said I am rooting for Huntington. However, that doesnt make made up BS from the census bureau any more real, and making fallacies against me wont change this.
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Old 03-22-2013, 06:44 PM
 
941 posts, read 1,053,381 times
Reputation: 176
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsb62574 View Post
If you think the census is irrelevant to marketing and business strategy, I am positive Marshall University gave me a superior undergraduate business education that was reinforced by obtaining an MBA from Ohio State. Your personal attacks fall short with me--mostly because I realize you are ill informed and beholden to your inherent Appalachian culture of isolationism (even when discussing regional areas). As stated previously, much of WV has attributes that have a tremendous amount to offer. It is counter productive for any region to posture themselves as superior. The state, small cities, local areas, and all the institutions of higher learning are largely viewed as lagging nationally. Personally, I do not feel that is true, yet it does not change this reality. On a national forum read by outsiders, it might be a good idea to support one another.

As for the source offered by Tbailey, it was informative. When those with adequate levels of reading comprehension review the material, it is easy to discern that census methodology is determined PRIOR to implementation. Numbers and regions are not changed AFTER data is collected. This rules out the conspiracy of manipulation by politicians and the use of irrelevant counting methods (sorry South Park). I know you never actually expected anyone to read the data and hoped that a repetition of falsehood would render your opinion valid, yet critical evaluation is part of a public forum. I know I only have a degree from MU and tOSU (a REAL nationally ranked academic institution of higher learning), but these are basic skills. For your sake, I hope your education equipped you with the same tools. I have challenged you by utilizing the Socratic method and found your logic wanting. The answer is there for your understanding, but I will no longer engage you in discourse to facilitate your grasp of the material. To continue along this vein is disrespectful to the Huntington posters and readers of this thread.

For Huntington posters on the forum, I am sorry for hi-jacking a discussion meant for positive information regarding your area. Throughout West Virginia there are many wonderful people, places, and communities; it is disheartening to see some so consumed with perceived inferiority that they must malign members of their own populace. After reading this post and the other about the under educated people in Southern West Virginia by pseudo-intellectuals, I felt compelled to respond.

After my visit to Huntington this week, I think the area is on the right course for future growth and success. You truly have a nice community with a unique nostalgic charm that seamlessly blends the old and new. Since my days at Marshall, Huntington has changed tremendously. It was a pleasure to see the growth of my alma mater and experience the long forgotten hospitality of the citizens of Huntington and Charleston. As most of my ties to the community are gone and my career and family are demanding on my personal time, I rarely have the opportunity visit; however, myself and my family thoroughly enjoyed ourselves. I hope Huntington continues to experience an economic resurgence, and I wish the best for your beautiful state. As Eleanor Roosevelt eloquently stated, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent". There is no reason for West Virginians to feel inferior--regardless of your location within the state's boundaries.
Thank you. This is appreciated by way more than just me.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:32 PM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,118,313 times
Reputation: 1758
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Originally Posted by PynballWyzyrd View Post
Thank you. This is appreciated by way more than just me.
Yes I'm sure the 1 or 2 other Huntington homers are ecstatic.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Ohio
1,268 posts, read 584,833 times
Reputation: 1460
Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
Your first sentence doesnt even make sense. You make a setup about the census than go on some rant about Marshall. Is that what passes for a discussion at MArshall?



Per Tbaileys source there is no criteria or methodology that they just cant make up and change as they want. In fact they even list all the times they changed it, which is very frequently.

The rest of your argument against me is then logical fallacies against me, mostly stawmen and personal attacks, which is hypocritical of you too since you tried to call me out for doing this although I didnt do this. I am not sure what they teach at Marshall, but not addressing the topic and ignoring logic and real data and resorting to hurling insults is not a way to have a discussion. Literally, you added nothing to the discussion. You just said, "what you said is not true and you are jealous blah blah."

My points stand.

Marshall probably has changed a lot since you left. It probably lost at least 10,000 people, the unemployment rate probably went up a few points, and the obesity rate too went up.

Like I said I am rooting for Huntington. However, that doesnt make made up BS from the census bureau any more real, and making fallacies against me wont change this.

Since you insist on continuation here, I will make one final attempt to assist you in logically patterned thinking.

If you feel my first sentence does not address your argument, you might truly benefit from some courses in basic comprehension.This is not a "personal attack" (I disclose the proper name of this fallacy later in the discussion)--just a true assessment based on the observational data within your writing. In fact, there are no personal attacks against you in my post (except for calling you on your supposed intellectual superiority). Again, the statements irk you only because you identify with the characteristics I describe; this does not make them untrue. I mention Marshall due to your assertion my education is inferior to yours. I proceed to disprove your statement via the logical conclusion of my point and further this development by adding that my academic pedigree exceeds the capability of your area (tOSU v. WVU). It is the first part of the sentence (before the coma) that disputes your greater claim that the MSA is arbitrary.

Let me try once more using modal logic :

FACTS: The census is conducted decennially based on a set criteria established prior to actual counting being conducted (see Tbailey's referenced article--remember look at the whole document). Most new business investors and corporations will review this data as the foundation for strategic marketing and business plans (see the reference section for any approved and financed business plan). Huntington has the largest MSA in West Virginia. Large markets are generally the targeted areas for business investment (see the demographic section of any business plan or the strategic marketing plan for almost every corporation).

Based on the above facts, we can determine that the statement "The census is important to companies starting within a nascent market" is:

A. True
B. not necessarily true
C. not necessarily false, possibly true
D. False

Stay with me here!!! Just one more question.

Using the same criteria, the statement: "Huntington may benefit from being the largest MSA in the state" is:

A. True
B. not necessarily true
C. not necessarily false, possibly true
D. False

Answers (True for both)=== The census is important for companies starting in a nascent market, and Huntington MAY benefit from being the largest MSA in the state. <<<Notice these are logical assumptions>>>

For some background, modal logic is often used as a tool to determine the ability of an individual to make wise financial decisions for strategic business planning and revenue generation. I only give you this information to dispel your ignorance with this subject matter. Again, not a personal attack--just observational data from illogical conclusions in your many posts.

Side Notes:

It is not really beneficial to agree that Huntington is the LARGEST MSA and then mock the population size. Certainly, you grasp that your area is smaller in permanent residency...Right?

Hypo means less; hyper means more. I think you meant "hypercritical" in your referenced context.

Logical fallacies are tricky, so I will give you a pass for your incompetence on the subject. For the record, a logical fallacy is a statement based on an invalid reference. I think you would be hard pressed to find examples of that within my response. Since the only definable fallacy you mention is the strawman, you are essentially stating that I am misrepresenting your position. I did not. I only made reference to your listed objectives that the census means nothing, I have an inferior education, and that companies do not use any census data choosing instead to physically count the population and gather the economic data at their own expense. The "personal attack fallacy" is called an ad hominem. I did utilize this once to deflate your sense of superiority in intellect, but this is minimal compared to your multiple posts and the one quoted above that is rife with the ad hominem fallacy. The reference to the Appalachian culture and isolationism is well documented and verifiable through a little diligence on your part. While you may think your points stand and that is most certainly your right, logically they do not. Facts are not debatable.

Since my graduation, Marshall has changed. There is a new library, a very nice alumni building, a new recreation center, two new garages, an engineering lab, a biotechnology center, new residence halls, a Marshall University Foundation Hall, an expanded performing arts center, and a soccer complex, arts building, and IPF under construction. While this does not denigrate any other university, Marshall has grown. If you would like to verify the information, you will find the staff of the alumni center very helpful in keeping you abreast of these developments. Again, all fact.

When you attempt to engage in discourse in the future, avoid making broad generalizations and statements regarding issues in which you lack education and understanding. To win an argument in this situation, you need rely on opinion because that is rooted in ego not truth. It is much easier to defend a personal opinion because they are solely your property. While consistent repetition of inaccurate assumptions may convince some, it cannot hold up under scrutiny. If applied, these tips will render you much more competent in a debate format.

While this has been fun (seriously, I enjoyed it), I will give the forum back to the Huntington posters. If nothing else, I hope you are hesitant to make a sweeping generalizations about a region in the future. Try to form a logical argument or just remain honest by stating, "I don't like it there; we are better". That is your opinion, and it is indisputable.

Last edited by dsb62574; 03-22-2013 at 10:09 PM..
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:13 PM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,118,313 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsb62574 View Post
Since you insist on continuation here, I will make one final attempt to assist you in logically patterned thinking.

If you feel my first sentence does not address your argument, you might truly benefit from some courses in basic comprehension.This is not a "personal attack" (I disclose the proper name of this fallacy later in the discussion)--just a true assessment based on the observational data within your writing. In fact, there are no personal attacks against you in my post (except for calling you on your supposed intellectual superiority). Again, the statements irk you only because you identify with the characteristics I describe; this does not make them untrue. I mention Marshall due to your assertion my education is inferior to yours. I proceed to disprove your statement via the logical conclusion of my point and further this development by adding that my academic pedigree exceeds the capability of your area (tOSU v. WVU). It is the first part of the sentence (before the coma) that disputes your greater claim that the MSA is arbitrary.

Let me try once more using modal logic :

The census is conducted yearly based on a set criteria prior to actual counting being conducted (see Tbailey's referenced article--remember look at the whole document). Most new business investors and corporations will review this data as the foundation for strategic marketing and business plans (see the reference section for any approved and financed business plan). Huntington has the largest MSA in West Virginia. Large markets are generally the targeted areas for business investment (see the demographic section of any business plan or the strategic marketing plan for almost every corporation).

Based on the above facts, we can determine that the statement "The census is important to companies starting within a nascent market" is:

A. True
B. not necessarily true
C. not necessarily false, possibly true
D. False

Stay with me here!!! Just one more question.

Using the same criteria, the statement: "Huntington may benefit from being the largest MSA in the state" is:

A. True
B. not necessarily true
C. not necessarily false, possibly true
D. False

Answers (True for both)=== The census is important for companies starting in a nascent market, and Huntington MAY benefit from being the largest MSA in the state. <<<Notice these are logical assumptions>>>

For some background, modal logic is often used as a tool to determine the ability of an individual to make wise financial decisions for strategic business planning and revenue generation. I only give you this information to dispel your ignorance with this subject matter. Again, not a personal attack--just observational data from illogical conclusions in your many posts.

Side Notes:

It is not really beneficial to agree that Huntington is the LARGEST MSA and then mock the population size. Certainly, you grasp that your area is smaller in permanent residency...Right?

Hypo means less; hyper means more. I think you meant "hypercritical" in your referenced context.

Logical fallacies are tricky, so I will give you a pass for your incompetence on the subject. For the record, a logical fallacy is a statement based on an invalid reference. I think you would be hard pressed to find examples of that within my response. Since the only definable fallacy you mention is the strawman, you are essentially stating that I am misrepresenting your position. I did not. I only made reference to your listed objectives that the census means nothing, I have an inferior education, and that companies do not use any census data choosing instead to physically count the population and gather the economic data at their own expense. The "personal attack fallacy" is called an ad hominem. I did utilize this once to deflate your sense of superiority in intellect, but this is minimal compared to your multiple posts and the one quoted above that is rife with the ad hominem fallacy. The reference to the Appalachian culture and isolationism is well documented and verifiable through a little diligence on your part. While you may think your points stand and that is most certainly your right, logically they do not. Facts are not debatable.

Since my graduation, Marshall has changed. There is a new library, a very nice alumni building, a new recreation center, two new garages, an engineering lab, a biotechnology center, new residence halls, a Marshall University Foundation Hall, an expanded performing arts center, and a soccer complex, arts building, and IPF under construction. While this does not denigrate any other university, Marshall has grown. If you would like to verify the information, you will find the staff of the alumni center very helpful in keeping you abreast of these developments. Again, all fact.

When you attempt to engage in discourse in the future, avoid making broad generalizations and statements regarding issues in which you lack education and understanding. To win an argument in this situation, you need rely on opinion because that is rooted in ego not truth. It is much easier to defend a personal opinion because they are solely your property. While consistent repetition of inaccurate assumptions may convince some, it cannot hold up under scrutiny. If applied, these tips will render you much more competent in a debate format.

While this has been fun (seriously, I enjoyed it), I will give the forum back to the Huntington posters. If nothing else, I hope you are hesitant to make a sweeping generalizations about a region in the future. Try to form a logical argument or just remain honest by stating, "I don't like it there; we are better". That is your opinion, and it is indisputable.


As it stands per the source we have it is all made up and can change whenever they want however they want. Made up nonsense by the government is not going to help Huntington business wise.

I appreciate the long post, but it is a lot of fluff and no substance.

You are not even trying. I can tell you put in a lot of time, but lots of nonsense doesnt make you any more convincing.

Come back when you have something. As it stands Tbailey proved it was nonsense a long time ago and that is where we are. Your take on things is irrelevant.
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