U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > West Virginia > Huntington
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-21-2013, 06:21 PM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,103,902 times
Reputation: 1758

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by goherd View Post
From the article above:

> Zain worked as a serologist for the West Virginia State Police from 1980 to 1989

a) The West Virginia State Police Forensic Laboratory is in South Charleston, WV, not at Marshall. Marshall houses the West Virginia's Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) laboratory facility.

b) The West Virginia Board of Trustees approved the foundation of the Marshall University Forensic Science Graduate Program and established the West Virginia Combined DNA Index System (CODIS) under the authority of the West Virginia State Police at Marshall in 1994.

CTMountaineer - there is nothing "dubious" about the Marshall University Forensic Science Center or the forensic science graduate program.

cry_havoc - you say "Nobody is going to care if you went to Marshall. Forensics is a profit center degree" which could not be further from the truth in regard to the Marshall University Forensic Science Center and forensic graduate program. This center provides training for laboratories across the country and the graduates of the Masters program are in high demand because of the rigorous education (including a mandatory internship) and the reputation of the program. Do you live near Huntington? Perhaps you should stop by Marshall and do some first hand research and report back.
Im very familiar with the field. Nobody is going to care. What Marshall provides is a useless degree in a field most students will never be able to get a job in where they dont even need a degree. You know who else learn to work in laboratories? real science majors. Where does Marshall rank for Biology or chemistry? If you are bragging about how prestigious your forensic degree is from Marshall people are just going to roll their eyes. If you want an expensive internship than I am sure the Marshall program is great.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-21-2013, 09:11 PM
 
7 posts, read 6,975 times
Reputation: 13
> You know who else learn to work in laboratories? real science majors.

cry_havoc - You continue to miss the point. The Marshall program is a Masters program and the students coming into this program are "real science majors" with chemistry and biology degrees from top universities all over the country.

and you go on to say:

> What Marshall provides is a useless degree in a field most students will never be able to get a
> job in where they dont even need a degree.

I agree it is a difficult field in which to get a job and most "real science majors" will never be able to get a job in this field. However "real science majors" with additional training and experience gained in the Marshall forensic science graduate program are all getting jobs. As quoted in recent articles about the Marshall forensic graduate program "The program has a 95 percent success rate at placing graduates of the program into the field".

And looking at the job postings and salaries of open positions on sites like the American Academy of Forensic Sciences:

Current Job Openings | American Academy of Forensic Sciences

even entry level jobs pay pretty well and many give preference or additional consideration to candidates with graduate degrees.

And if it is a "for profit center" why do they have such stringent entrance requirements and limit admittance to just 20 students (see the "Prospective Students" section on the Marsahll forensic graduate program web site)

So if 95% of the graduates of this program are getting jobs in a competitive field and in a difficult economy, what facts do you have to back up your claims of "useless degree" and "profit center degree"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-21-2013, 10:20 PM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,103,902 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by goherd View Post
> You know who else learn to work in laboratories? real science majors.

cry_havoc - You continue to miss the point. The Marshall program is a Masters program and the students coming into this program are "real science majors" with chemistry and biology degrees from top universities all over the country.

and you go on to say:

> What Marshall provides is a useless degree in a field most students will never be able to get a
> job in where they dont even need a degree.

I agree it is a difficult field in which to get a job and most "real science majors" will never be able to get a job in this field. However "real science majors" with additional training and experience gained in the Marshall forensic science graduate program are all getting jobs. As quoted in recent articles about the Marshall forensic graduate program "The program has a 95 percent success rate at placing graduates of the program into the field".

And looking at the job postings and salaries of open positions on sites like the American Academy of Forensic Sciences:

Current Job Openings | American Academy of Forensic Sciences

even entry level jobs pay pretty well and many give preference or additional consideration to candidates with graduate degrees.

And if it is a "for profit center" why do they have such stringent entrance requirements and limit admittance to just 20 students (see the "Prospective Students" section on the Marsahll forensic graduate program web site)

So if 95% of the graduates of this program are getting jobs in a competitive field and in a difficult economy, what facts do you have to back up your claims of "useless degree" and "profit center degree"?


University of Phoenix also has very high placement for grads according to their own statistics.

You are using the useless accreditation system of a useless degree.

Like you said most people wont work in forensics. The whole field is useless, and is considered somewhat of a joke.

The real degree is called biology. Marhsall is not so great at that so it remarkets its poor biology program as forensics to get money from gullible students who think they will be on CSI.

Im sorry but it isnt a degree. It is a a few classes, a certification at best or a few weeks of training. A degree is just watering down a few classes in applied biology, and a little chemistry, into a degree.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-21-2013, 10:53 PM
 
9,405 posts, read 11,471,164 times
Reputation: 1507
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeros71 View Post
Fred Zain is the name you are looking for.

Who was Fred Zain? - The Herald Dispatch

Scores of Convictions Reviewed as Chemist Faces Perjury Accusations : Forensics: Fred Zain's expert testimony and lab tests helped put scores of rapists and murderers behind bars. But college transcript shows he flunked some chemistry classes and bar

Also trying to link the MU Forensic program to situations and incidents, these happened well before the MU program was in existence by the way, the WV State police had in the past is a leap even Evel Knievel couldn't make.
I am only saying their association with that particular lab is the only thing I would question as lending credibility. I forgot Zain's name, but definitely not the horrific results of his "work". I am not linking it to Marshall's program by any means, but the WVSP have a long way to go to establish credibility in their crime lab as far as I'm concerned. I have more than two decades in the criminal justice system and know some of the players involved at the time there. Amazingly, in spite of off the damage he did, he seemingly managed to skate. His antics affected the credibility of police work everywhere in the country.

Your post basically says it all... the WVSP hired him, and he flunked his chemistry courses. What does that tell you? I'm guessing nobody even bothered to read his transcript.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2013, 06:33 AM
 
1,353 posts, read 1,258,696 times
Reputation: 389
CT, the way you worded your post regarding the MU program and the WVSP/Fred Zain situation, it sounded like you were trying to link the two things together. Your wording inferred a connection.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2013, 06:59 AM
 
7 posts, read 6,975 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post


University of Phoenix also has very high placement for grads according to their own statistics.

You are using the useless accreditation system of a useless degree.

Like you said most people wont work in forensics. The whole field is useless, and is considered somewhat of a joke.

The real degree is called biology. Marhsall is not so great at that so it remarkets its poor biology program as forensics to get money from gullible students who think they will be on CSI.

Im sorry but it isnt a degree. It is a a few classes, a certification at best or a few weeks of training. A degree is just watering down a few classes in applied biology, and a little chemistry, into a degree.
cry_havoc - Thank you for this post because it will serve as further proof to future readers of this forum that you are just expressing personal opinion and innuendo. When asked for facts to back up your assertions you respond with disparaging remarks about the Marshall biology program.

One more fact as it relates to this thread about the Marshall University Forensic Science Graduate Program - the program is affiliated with the Marshall University School of Medicine, not the biology program (and to be clear I am not disparaging the Marshall biology program since I don't know much about it except I believe it is world class bioinformatics)

Future web searchers reading this forum while researching Marshall University or a career in forensic science - Do your homework and dig deep to understand the details of any possible career choice and required education options. Arm your self with facts and not opinion and innuendo.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2013, 07:45 AM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,103,902 times
Reputation: 1758
Quote:
Originally Posted by goherd View Post
cry_havoc - Thank you for this post because it will serve as further proof to future readers of this forum that you are just expressing personal opinion and innuendo. When asked for facts to back up your assertions you respond with disparaging remarks about the Marshall biology program.

One more fact as it relates to this thread about the Marshall University Forensic Science Graduate Program - the program is affiliated with the Marshall University School of Medicine, not the biology program (and to be clear I am not disparaging the Marshall biology program since I don't know much about it except I believe it is world class bioinformatics)

Future web searchers reading this forum while researching Marshall University or a career in forensic science - Do your homework and dig deep to understand the details of any possible career choice and required education options. Arm your self with facts and not opinion and innuendo.
Sure, use this post people need to know it is a joke program. Forensic science is still just applied biology. My opinion of the program, which is already low, has been made even worse now that I know it is associated with Marshal's med school which has a terrible reputation. It isn't even ranked. That is known as a third tier school which is just a waste of money. WV does have a ranked med school at WVU though.

So kids take something useful like bioinformatics and not forensic science. I know you think it will be like CSI but in reality it will be you working in Walmart.

So yes arm yourself with facts, and the fact is Forensic sciencr is a bad major and the prestige is the same from any school. Ignore the opinion of Marshall grads who just eant to make their school look good. There are few jobs and they are hard to get, you agree to as much, and you don't even need a forensic degree to get them.

I'm not putting Marshal down. Go to Marshal and get a degree in a real major but stay away from forensics at any school.

Feel free to share this all you want.

Last edited by cry_havoc; 08-22-2013 at 07:58 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2013, 08:36 AM
 
9,405 posts, read 11,471,164 times
Reputation: 1507
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeros71 View Post
CT, the way you worded your post regarding the MU program and the WVSP/Fred Zain situation, it sounded like you were trying to link the two things together. Your wording inferred a connection.
I suppose my wording COULD be interpreted that way, but that is not how I meant it. I mean if I were running that program I would not be touting the connection like they are at this point.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2013, 08:40 AM
 
7 posts, read 6,975 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by cry_havoc View Post
Sure, use this post people need to know it is a joke program. Forensic science is still just applied biology. My opinion of the program, which is already low, has been made even worse now that I know it is associated with Marshal's med school which has a terrible reputation. It isn't even ranked. That is known as a third tier school which is just a waste of money. WV does have a ranked med school at WVU though.

So kids take something useful like bioinformatics and not forensic science. I know you think it will be like CSI but in reality it will be you working in Walmart.

So yes arm yourself with facts, and the fact is Forensic sciencr is a bad major and the prestige is the same from any school. Ignore the opinion of Marshall grads who just eant to make their school look good. There are few jobs and they are hard to get, you agree to as much, and you don't even need a forensic degree to get them.

I'm not putting Marshal down. Go to Marshal and get a degree in a real major but stay away from forensics at any school.

Feel free to share this all you want.
It seems impossible to have a factual discussion with you. A couple of clarifications to your last post however:

> Ignore the opinion of Marshall grads who just want to make their school look good.

If you are insinuating that I am a Marshall grad you are completely off base. I also do not live, and have never lived, anywhere near Marshall University or in WV. Also my statements about the program and the success its graduates are based on facts. Waiting for similar facts to back up your assertions.

> I'm not putting Marshal down.

But throughout your posts you have lambasted Marshall and their programs (the biology program, the med school, etc.). It appears there is an ulterior motive to your posts.

No sense continuing to debate your opinion and innuendo. You obviously have no facts to bring to the table. Bring 'em if you got 'em.

Anxiously awaiting your next "hands over the ears - la, la, la - I'm not listening" post.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-22-2013, 09:17 AM
 
6,349 posts, read 8,103,902 times
Reputation: 1758
You obviously have no facts to bring to the table. Bring 'em if you got 'em.

Anxiously awaiting your next "hands over the ears - la, la, la - I'm not listening" post.[
Quote:
Originally Posted by goherd View Post
It seems impossible to have a factual discussion with you. A couple of clarifications to your last post however:

> Ignore the opinion of Marshall grads who just want to make their school look good.

If you are insinuating that I am a Marshall grad you are completely off base. I also do not live, and have never lived, anywhere near Marshall University or in WV. Also my statements about the program and the success its graduates are based on facts. Waiting for similar facts to back up your assertions.

> I'm not putting Marshal down.

But throughout your posts you have lambasted Marshall and their programs (the biology program, the med school, etc.). It appears there is an ulterior motive to your posts.

No sense continuing to debate your opinion and innuendo. You obviously have no facts to bring to the table. Bring 'em if you got 'em.

Anxiously awaiting your next "hands over the ears - la, la, la - I'm not listening" post.


Your name is goherd and you do have agenda. In fact you only madr an account after this discussion and have only participated in this forum in this discussion to argue for Marshall. You also seem to really know a lot about the Marshall program. Yeah I am sure you are a neutral party here.

However, that is irrelevant. The facts have been established and that is there are almost no job openings in this field, few jobs, and you don't need a degree to work them. You have presented no facts of your own other than some vague statement of the accreditation agency responsible for this joke field. Accreditation agencies are famous for being shady and misleading

Quote:
. Various commenters have written about the role and effectiveness of the American accreditation system. It has drawn particular interest since the rise of e-learning classes and institutions. A frequent point of discussion and criticism is that the system is limited to measuring "input" factors, such as adequate facilities and properly credentialed faculty, rather than the quality of a school's educational output.[21]

In his 1996 book Crisis in the Academy, Christopher J. Lucas criticized the accreditation system as too expensive, onerously complicated, incestuous in its organization, and not properly tied to quality.[22][21] Similarly, a 2002 report by George C. Leef and Roxana D. Burris of the American Council of Trustees and Alumni (ACTA) argued that the system does not ensure or protect educational quality, while still imposing significant costs.[23][24] A lack of transparency, low and lax standards and outdated regionalization were cited among the problems with regional accreditation [25] . Others, such as Edward M. Elmendorf of the American Association of State Colleges and Universities, reject these claims, arguing that they are "picking around the edges" of a proven and necessary system for upholding standards.[21][26] Others note the specific problem that schools unable or unwilling to meet the standards of traditional accrediting bodies have begun to start their own agencies that may have much less rigorous standards.[27]

At various times the U.S. government has investigated changes to the accreditation system. In 2002 the House of Representatives Subcommittee on 21st Century Competitiveness criticized the system.[26] Accreditation was a major topic of the Spellings Commission, which released its report on September 26, 2006.[28] The Council for Higher Education Accreditation recognizes that there are criticisms,[29] but has opposed these calls for reform, with President Judith S. Eaton arguing that the system is successful and needs to remain flexible to accommodate differences between schools and disciplines.[26] In 2013, President Barack Obama proposed changes in the accreditation system to hold "colleges accountable for cost, value, and quality".[30] He called on Congress to change the Higher Education Act so that affordability and value are considered in determining which institutions are accredited and allow students access to federal financial aid
It is like a car salesmen setting up an agency to rate his cars. YOU have no proof of anything you have said.

I also never put Marshall down. Their med school has a bad reputation and isn't ranked. That isn't opinion. Their biology is ranked somewhere in the #200 range. Those are facts. Marshall is generally not considered prestigious.


You obviously have no facts to bring to the table. Bring 'em if you got 'em.

Anxiously awaiting your next "hands over the ears - la, la, la - I'm not listening" post.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:



Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > West Virginia > Huntington
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top