Downtown (Birmingham, Huntsville, Madison: environment, equity, relocate)

[Reactionary]

IMO Huntsville should focus on maintaining its' brand: great place to raise a family.

There are plenty of downtown projects planned; here's a list of new stuff all over the city:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/2009046-post4.html

[financelife]

33458,

Thanks for letting us know. I'm just being realistic and taking into consideration the majority of Huntsvillians. The majority is not going to support it, which is why it hasn't taken off. Because the majority is not worried about it. They work and have kids, and I don't know about you, but with a child now who is 5 mo old, (I'm 28 btw), I find myself worrying about things I never used to. I worry about school zones mostly, and where I bought my home 3 months ago reflects that.

Of course things can change, and the city is trying to. Nicole and Rnc, don't get upset. You view it as a problem that there are no housing options downtown, but the majority do not view it as a problem, otherwise something would have been done long ago.

And Evad said "I'd love to see downtown return to be the shopping, dining, and entertainment mecca of the region like it once was." Okay, when was that? Back when Huntsville was the capital of the confederate states? lol, sorry. And why is Huntsville's image based on downtown? I think that's false because whenever there is an advertisement about the city, the most mentioned thing is that Huntsville has the second largest research park, etc. Wise up. Also, isn't Bridge Street being emphasized as the shopping mecca of the region nowadays? That's your new downtown.

Like I said, good effort by the city to try and develop downtown. They should. But also they should be realistic. A professor at UAH mentioned that he is moving from their home near 5 points/monte sano to a new subdivision near research park and UAH. Yeah, not everybody wants to live in subs, and my first home was between Drake and Bob Wallace, which people at work joked that it was the ghetto. lol. Wife and i were never bothered though, and have fond memories of it. But with a baby, sorry. Moved to a subdivision where there are other families with similar situations and goals.

[Evad35801]

Originally Posted by financelife

And Evad said "I'd love to see downtown return to be the shopping, dining, and entertainment mecca of the region like it once was." Okay, when was that? Back when Huntsville was the capital of the confederate states? lol, sorry. And why is Huntsville's image based on downtown? I think that's false because whenever there is an advertisement about the city, the most mentioned thing is that Huntsville has the second largest research park, etc. Wise up. Also, isn't Bridge Street being emphasized as the shopping mecca of the region nowadays? That's your new downtown.

Wasn't that long ago actually. Up until probably 60s, when they started building malls and white flight drove the people to the burbs. My mom, who grew up in Athens, has fond memories of heading to the 'big city' for a day of shopping, which was of course downtown Huntsville. Downtown used to have all the big department stores and such for the area. Maybe I misused the term mecca, since Decatur had a comparable downtown back in those days.

I understand there's a difference in priorities, and when I have kids in the next few years my priorities will change too. If I could not afford private school, I would definitely not live in bad school district. Of course my current home in Blossomwood is in a pretty good school district, so unless I hit my head and want to live in some bland suburb, I can always stick to my current hood or the medical district.

Sure, the city's advertisements talk about the second largest research park, bridge street, and such. But doesn't that come back to the fact that they are having trouble luring young people to Huntsville? Again, a lot of young people don't care about such things. They want an interesting and unique city. Sure bridge street is one of nicer 'lifestyle centers' around now, but in a couple years someone will build a bigger, better one in B'ham or Nashville. Speaking of Bridge Street, they REALLY need a big department store or 2(Macy's, I'm looking at you).

[NicoleC]

I've worked in real estate for many years, including for commercial and industrial builders. I am not familiar with the building climate in Huntsville so I can't guess at specifics, but in most cities, urban infill and redevelopment is very expensive. Critical from a city planning standpoint, but very costly.

Heavy equipment blocks street access, tears up pavement, interferes with business, disturbs utilities and gets the neighbors mad. Historical buildings can be affected and harmed by the vibrations. People get displaced. In a place like Huntsville, it's also very risky from a business perspective.

This is one of the reasons why sprawl happens. It's cheaper to build on the outskirts of a city for the private enterprise. First comes the cheap tract residential housing, then retail follows to meet the residential demand. Then the city is forced to spend money to extend public services like roads, police and fire. By "city," let's be blunt and call that taxpayers.

Since the 1980's, overall in the US people have stopped fleeing to the suburbs and are more interested in urban living. Cities which wish to accommodate this desire and renew their urban core MUST spend taxpayer money or it won't happen. Strategies include:

• Public development: Building and renewing government buildings in the urban core
• Public development: Building parking facilities and improving infrastructure
• Public assistance for private enterprise: tax breaks and enterprise zones, rezoning to meet private project demands
• Public assistance for private enterprise: land write-downs, subsidies
• Public assistance for private enterprise: exercise of eminent domain, publicly sponsored clearance

As part of the risk, speculative urban projects almost always fail. You must have a climate of success for them to work. RNC's notion that new buildings might fail was spot-on, and one of the reasons why you are seeing urban residential projects in HSV with astronomical price tags. Not only is the developer attempting to recoup real unavoidable costs, but (and this is a guess) they are probably banking on selling to a few suckers at that premium price before they have to slash prices to move the rest of the properties.

Restoring and modifying existing buildings is cheaper and less risky. The regulatory climate is going to be much friendlier, too. But.. the scale is always smaller.

So realistically, the city must spend money to offset the costs of private urban development if it is going to happen. Since the city would also spend money to service private suburban sprawl, any well run city is going to do a cost benefit analysis. Somewhere in that analysis is probably a fuzzy benefit of renewing a section of the city which may continue to deteriorate without assistance.

Urban renewal projects -- like Five Points -- tend to be slower but are much cheaper for the city. Investors and homeowners are restoring those homes with private money. All the city needs to do is clean up and improve the infrastructure a little and keep nudging the project along.

But as 33458 pointed out: there's an ugly side to redevelopment. People live there. You can't bulldoze a project and forcibly relocate people without making plans for other low income housing. Projects are a failed experiment that make the problem of inner city crime and drugs worse, not better, and they also tend to segregate by race and class. (They may be a failed experiment, but they are better than the shanty towns they replaced.)

Still, these households have to go somewhere. Either you need to create new low income housing (new "projects"), require developers to include high density affordable housing in their plans, or assistance in the form of Section 8 vouchers which enable lower income families to live in middle income housing. Private developers hate being forced to include lower income housing, but if they want the carrot of public assistance for their project, it usually isn't a deal killer.

IMO, requiring mixed developments is the best balance of meeting the needs of low income housing. It avoids the stigma of either the projects or an assistance voucher and, when followed as a consistent policy, allows the most choice for the low income families. Plus it requires developers to pay back their public assistance with meeting a real public need.

Urban renewal is not a luxury, it's a necessity. Concentrated slums -- which is what the urban core turns into without paying attention to it's state -- is a blight on the entire city. Suburbs don't exist without a city core, and the city core defines the identity of the entire area. People never ask how far a subdivision is from another subdivision.

Coming from the outside, to me HSV really has a small problem, not a big one. The downtown area is fairly small and already has some nice destinations; it just lacks the cohesion necessary to make it all work. The low income projects here really aren't bad at all. And there is a clear segment of the population already pushing back into the urban sector. You can expect that population to grow as energy prices continue to rise.

However, HSV also has a real need to address it's relatively small problem downtown and the bigger problem of the city's fast expansion. A sea of sprawling low density suburbs from Florence to Chatanooga isn't sustainable from an infrastructure standpoint. And if HSV can't continue to attract young high tech workers like new college grads, the high tech businesses that form the backbone of the local economy will leave.

Urban renewal doesn't need to detract from a family friendly climate -- it supports it. Often left out of the discussion is the amount of money those young singles, childless couples and retirees contribute to the local economy. They are the ones who subsidize the expensive services and schools in the suburbs. Many of those singles will eventually want to raise families, and if HSV continues to be family friendly -- well, you have a great dynamic then.

I think HSV can do it and I think the city is getting on track to handling it's growing pains. Downtown seems to be the biggest thorn in the project, but it almost always in any city.

[NicoleC]

I think I had too much coffee this morning...

[33458]

Urban renewal projects -- like Five Points -- tend to be slower but are much cheaper for the city. Investors and homeowners are restoring those homes with private money. All the city needs to do is clean up and improve the infrastructure a little and keep nudging the project along.

I was just talking to husband about this last weekend...we had considered Five Points (I'm an old house nutjob) but could not find enough land to go with the house...or enough house...or one that didn't need more work than he was willing to put in...sigh. But the feel of the neighborhood - under the surface, the funky quality that I sense and the beautiful Old Towne right next door made me want to be near there. I'll be coming down to visit, often.
I had wondered if there would be a movement to establish a renewal project for the area - something I have seen be very successful in South FL...there is a whole community devoted to the restoration of history and another to the renovation of something decrepit - put those two together and you get a great neighborhood, minus the HOA.
(The annual 'historic home tours' are swell, too.)

I wound up in Oak Park in a sweet fixer-upper, up the hill on a silent street with deer in the large back yard, and I feel quite at home there - which is weird because I really DON'T like suburbs much...but I like deer. (Flourchild - the area seems stable and firmly middleclass...got McMansions being built higher on the hill and the older, possibly less-affluent neighborhoods below...am hoping the information about Lee being slated for reconstruction is correct...not sure if my toddler will be in Public or Private school yet...)

I'm rambling...

OK, back to the topic at hand - and more about resident relocation. I saw this three times in the past ten years...the City Counsel decides to build a splashy new _______ but first they need to, uh, cleanse the area of crime, and unsightly buildings.
So they force out the established businesses instead of offering incentives to stay and upgrade, buy out the poverty-level community and level the shacks. They build such a grand, shiny display of wealth, attracting every yuppie West of Palm Beach to the call of liquor...and then wonder why they still have a crime problem. The 'undesirables' were simply moved to the outskirts and came right back in to prey upon the loud, drunken spendthrifts. And most other retail struggles because the fully inebriated don't like to shop.

Sad, really, sad.

[NicoleC]

I made a similar choice 33458, and for the same reasons. I didn't like what was for sale in my price range for both lot size and home quality, so I bought a lot *near* the action and I'm going to build in north Chapman Heights. Pinch me that I found a lot that close into town.

If I had had more money to throw at the project, I would have enjoyed lovingly restoring one of those old craftsman homes. As it is... maybe I'll build one.

[Reactionary]

NicoleC - great 'urban renewal' post. I'll note that Section 8 clients can drive down a neighborhood because the houses aren't typically maintained or kept (lawns, paint, roofs, trashy, &c) - IMO that's true for any neighborhood with a high proportion of renters.

And I'll add that projects are easiest to redevelop since the city already owns the property - and if they build 'better' housing elsewhere, the client tenants can't effectively complain (for example, the Councill project by HSV Hospital is planned for sale and redevelopment - the clients will be offered new housing).

33458 - unfortunately, IMO your only choice is private school - white flight - Lee HS is dangerous for teens (thugs and drugs), Chapman MS is one of the worst in the city (ranks around last with Davis Hills for safety - thugs), and all that has affected Chapman Elementary. IIRC Chapman MS is almost entirely black. Lee HS will be as the few whites graduate - even with the magnet. Fewer whites are going to Chapman Elementary (homeschool or private school instead). The schools are ruining the area, it's a fairly recent change, and I don't know how to fix it. But now the area east of I565 is an enclave.

[deesonic]

As a proud alumnus of some of Huntsville's 'worst' schools in the 80s and early 90s (Ridgecrest Elementary, Stone Middle, Butler High) and former and current resident of Huntsville's unsexy SW side (Bob Wallace and Triana area), I'll throw in my 2 cents about being from the 'ghetto.'

Much of the problem with areas of Huntsville that are not considered popular is the city's neglect of those areas. You can't blame it entirely on schools. For instance, most of me and my wife's friends live in SE Huntsville in the Bailey Cove area and they are constantly recreational improvements for families like parks, Aldridge Creek bike/run trail to Ditto, sidewalks, etc. Drive down Drake Ave or Bob Wallace Ave in SW Huntsville and you'll see people walking in the shoulder for lack of sidewalks. You'll see concreted creeks where recreation areas could be. You'll see homeless, prostitutes, and drug dealers hanging out in Brahan Springs which was once Huntsville's nicest, biggest park. You'll see the city building a high school (Columbia HS) that was not needed in order to appease 'white flight' types and keep them from fleeing all the way to Madison. Butler and Johnson are half empty for crying out loud!

OK, so I vented a bit. There are pockets of hope in SW Huntsville. Lowe Mill is starting to rebound with the artist crowd interested in the area and the city moving out the rescue missions and creating cul de sacs to cut down on drug trafficing. There's also Merrimack Mill Village (Huntsville Park) which is rebounding with the new performing arts center and old home lovers (like me) taking the challenge of restoring a great historic neighborhood. There are even plans to build the first new subdivision in the area since who knows when off the southern end of Triana.

And to be fair to the city, it's not like many residents in this area are pushing city leaders for change. Many of the working class from areas like SW Huntsville, NE Huntsville, etc don't take the time or simply don't know how to petition for positive change in their areas.

I have digressed a bit since the topic is downtown. But outside of the wonderful historic districts downtown and the 5 Points, Hospital District, and Blossomwood areas most of Huntsville's more centrally located neighborhoods are suffering to retain homeowners and families. When I lived in Savannah/Chatham Co GA there was no such thing as a good public school. They were all horrible! But the city has managed to maintain it's neighborhood integrity, focus on culture and arts and have revitalized it's core making it very popular with young professional adults and artsy types as well. Even Chattanooga has remade it's downtown and many of it's surrounding neighborhoods to make it a great mid-size city. Why shouldn't Huntsville work to revitalize it's downtown and surrounding neighborhoods. I think there's lots of potential for areas like Terry Heights, Meridian Street, Oak Park, etc to prosper with downtown revitalization.

That's why I think downtown matters. You want a cheaply built suburban, brick facade home in a clear cut pasture, there's plenty of them to be had in Hazel Green, Toney, Madison, etc. And you'll have those 'good' schools and your kids can play safely. But Huntsville does not benefit from a sprawling county outside its borders. It must focus on itself from the center out or suffer the fate of city like Birmingham where many of the neighborhoods are boarded up with little hope of reviving.

[Reactionary]

deesonic - I know what you mean - much of Five Points doesn't have curbs but Twickenham has "curb-outs" (projections which are intended to slow down and reroute traffic away from their neighborhood)...

City Councilman Bill Kling has been a strong advocate for SW. IIRC he's trying to get the homeless shelters closed down or moved. Between the shelters and the projects, that area has a lot of problems. I'll note that many of the older houses in the neighborhood are fairly large and well constructed - ripe for restoration.

HSV city schools need some major reorganization and consolidation - IIRC they're operating at about 60% capacity (don't quote that). One of the problems is the desegregation order, reorganizing requires too much documentation and lawyering. Another problem is that they'd have to move around teachers.

Widening Meridian is planned and should extend downtown almost to Oakwood Ave (and the planned Lincoln Mill condos). The city is also planning to widen Church to Oakwood. Between that and redeveloping Councill projects, downtown will reach from Governors to Oakwood.