Downtown Huntsville moving in the right direction (Birmingham, Decatur: real estate, houses)

[java85]

In today's Times, the Huntsville City Council wants to reconsider the 10-story height limit in the downtown core. Now they want to consider setting a 16-story cap on buildings and no height limits. The public gets to voice their opinions on the height limits on May 22nd at City Hall.

It would be interesting to know how this will play out. Huntsville has too much of a big population and is growing rapidly to be going through a ridiculous building height limit. I had always thought that the same members who voted in favor for creating a short skyline would had never bothered with this topic as long as they were still serving the city. I guess they now realize that the city can never show its growth if they want to toy with putting traditional fixtures downtown. Hopefully we can look past this crazy height limit and build downtown the way it should be created!

[HsvMike]

That is great news. Thanks for sharing Java. Hopefully they will raise the limit.

[Charles]

What are the arguments for limits? View obstruction? Seismic issues? Fire department ladder length limits? Infrastructure such parking or utilities?

That is, why isn't economics determining the floors and heights?

[Reactionary]

Originally Posted by Charles

Fire department ladder length limits

Very astute. IIRC the City is building a new Fire Station now to handle taller buildings downtown.

Plus, downtown is bordered by the Twickenham and Old Town Historic Districts. If the City raised the height limits in a defined area but kept a buffer around the Historic Districts I think people would support it.

Does anyone have info about the old Central Bank building (tan bldg W of Courthouse) turning into residential condos? I heard a rumor but that sounds almost too strange to believe, plus West Court Cafe is closing? Where am I going to get the best greasy burgers in town if it closes?

[NicoleC]

Originally Posted by Charles

What are the arguments for limits? View obstruction? Seismic issues? Fire department ladder length limits? Infrastructure such parking or utilities?

That is, why isn't economics determining the floors and heights?

Unlike many cities, Huntsville's inner city is not run down, not blighted and is adjacent to some of the most expensive and desirable real estate in the city. When people talk about revitalizing downtown here, it means getting more people downtown, not cleaning up.

The historic nature of the city has been preserved because HSV has never had a big boom cycle before and there has never been any serious redevelopment. With the pressure from how far HSV has sprawled with how little infrastructure, the lack of public transit and the rising costs of energy, more attention is being focused downtown and on redevelopment.

In Huntsville, you can clearly see the concentric rings of growth from the original downtown. The concern is to preserve that character in spite of growth, which is mostly where the height limit stems from. There are other concerns:

-Vibrations caused by construction of large buildings can ruin nearby historic buildings
-The fire department currently can't support buildings any taller than 10 stories
-The loss of property value to nearby historic (and expensive) residential homes which would also lose their character if they were surrounded by tall modern buildings.

Finally, there is a story that the area under downtown geologically can't support massive buildings. I don't know if it's true of not and I haven't been able to verify/disprove it.

At the other end of the spectrum are folks who want Huntsville to become more modern and have a more industrial downtown, and don't care as much about the historic character.

Currently, there is a 10 story limit downtown and shorter limits near more sensitive areas. I have yet to see a map of downtown which actually specifies what height limit is where, even the 10 story limit. I think this is critical to the discussion and it's hard to have an informed opinion without knowing exactly what areas are under discussion. If the city is going to seriously address with, we need that map in color on the front page of the Times.

Personally, I think some height limits are appropriate in some areas, but that overall the focus should be on specific buildings fitting in, not specific heights. A gleaming modern glass and steel building of any height would be inappropriate in Huntsville's downtown, but a tall building with the architecture of the Empire State Building would not. Huntsville has other areas where more modern-styled buildings would fit in; areas which, in fact, might be more appropriate as the "new" downtown instead of bulldozing the historic one.

The economics of the situation is that recently one developer seriously wanted to build a 16 story complex in downtown and has been told no. (Which is why some folks have floated the magic number of 16 as a new height limit.) No doubt other projects will come up in the future, but at the moment the question is largely academic. Which is probably the best time to have it; when you have a developer breathing down your neck with lots of money, city officials tend to get a bit wiggy.

[rnc76]

Originally Posted by NicoleC

At the other end of the spectrum are folks who want Huntsville to become more modern and have a more industrial downtown, and don't care as much about the historic character.

I don't think anyone wants an "industrial" downtown. I think historic character and progress can co-exist. A couple cities that come to mind that are of similar scale to Huntsville are Providence, RI and Lexington, KY. Both of these cities have a much more vibrant downtown with much taller buildings, yet are very similar in size. The more modern skyscrapers blend into the historic buildings at street level. If done properly, they can co-exist. Gratz Park, Ashland and Chevy Chase are the most desirable historic neighborhoods in Lexington. If anything, the property values have been greatly enhanced by being walking distance to a downtown that actually offers some good restaurants and entertainment options.

The fact is, there is a lot of VACANT land in the downtown area bordered by the Parkway, Pratt, Andrew Jackson/California and Governors. There are even surface parking lots inside of Monroe that are not full during the work day. There is room to build several new buildings without disturbing any existing structures.

[NicoleC]

Originally Posted by rnc76

I don't think anyone wants an "industrial" downtown. I think historic character and progress can co-exist.

I agree; I mean industrial as in industrialized, not industrial as in warehouses and such.

My concern is that I hear a lot of pro-development talk from people who want the height limit lifted, but haven't seemed to stop and ask themselves what KIND of tall development they would want and where exactly.

The fact is, there is a lot of VACANT land in the downtown area bordered by the Parkway, Pratt, Andrew Jackson/California and Governors. There are even surface parking lots inside of Monroe that are not full during the work day. There is room to build several new buildings without disturbing any existing structures.

And what part of that land is affected, exactly, by the height limit? Has anyone seen exact boundaries of the 10 story limit enumerated?

Remember much of that area is flood basin; open space needs to remain in flood basin areas although I would rather see nice parks and playgrounds instead.

[rnc76]

Originally Posted by NicoleC

I agree; I mean industrial as in industrialized, not industrial as in warehouses and such.

My concern is that I hear a lot of pro-development talk from people who want the height limit lifted, but haven't seemed to stop and ask themselves what KIND of tall development they would want and where exactly.



And what part of that land is affected, exactly, by the height limit? Has anyone seen exact boundaries of the 10 story limit enumerated?

Remember much of that area is flood basin; open space needs to remain in flood basin areas although I would rather see nice parks and playgrounds instead.

I think most people have thought about the type of devopment they want. They want development that brings jobs and entertainment options to downtown. The only way to do that is to create a density of office and living spaces that can support a variety of businesses other than a few bars and lunch spots. And of course it needs to blend with the other structures downtown.

I don't know the boundaries exactly of the 10 story limits, but the areas inside of Monroe are definitely restricted.

We've had this conversation before about the flood basin. Much of the west side of downtown Huntsville is in the 100 year flood zone already. Notably the new Embassy Suites, the Constellation development and the new jail. I'm not sure what the exact restrictions are regarding building in the flood basin, but that hasn't seemed to stopped development in the past or future planned development. I am not sure of the building techniques and design requirements, but it is being done.

[NicoleC]

I think most people have thought about the type of devopment they want. They want development that brings jobs and entertainment options to downtown. The only way to do that is to create a density of office and living spaces that can support a variety of businesses other than a few bars and lunch spots. And of course it needs to blend with the other structures downtown.

Is that all? I agree... but I don't think a 10 story building limit is holding any of that back. The way bigger issue is a lack of focus among the city leadership. If the height limit went away tomorrow I doubt anything would change.

Caveat: it's been a long time since I worked with flood zone stuff.

There are no hard and fast rules at the federal level. Instead, there's a rating system for communities. The better the score, the lower the flood insurance premiums for a community.

Huntsville is currently a CRS class 7 -- not great, but not bad either; Birmingham is a 6. (Decatur and Athens are 10s, the worst score possible.) The more buildings you have in a flood zone, the worse your score. Preservation of open space is a huge chunk of points in the rating system. There are mitigation projects which can offset building, like HSV's plans for greenways and drainage basins, but simply put, developing new properties in a flood zone would drop the score and increase flood insurance rates for EVERYONE in Huntsville that has flood insurance.

And of course if the score gets bad enough, everyone in HSV could lose access to flood insurance and national disaster assistance... whether they are in a flood plain or not.

So it isn't a matter of whether or not a specific building and/or developer wants to take on the additional costs and risk. It affects the whole community and has to be considered part of an overall flood mitigation strategy. It's just Huntsville's bad luck that so much apparently prime real estate is smack dab in a SHRA.

Federal laws very strictly limit the use of municipal funds for projects in flood zones AND developers very rarely redevelop without the city ponying up funds, so...

What you can probably expect to happen in the flood zone is one or two projects, then more flood mitigation infrastructure upgrades, then one or two more projects... a very slow process. Bear in mind these projects can only happen in the flood fringe, not the floodway; HSV does not permit any development directly in the floodway except parking lots.

It won't change any faster without a major player or a big shakeup happening. Of course, should the drought end and that 1% chance happens, the city could be singing another tune very quickly. It's no coincidence that the Huntsville Flood Mitigation Plan they are still using was put together right after the Aldridge Creek flood.

[sinfree]

This is really great to hear. As shallow as it may be, I really do think the lack of a "skyline" probably causes people to have a lower opinion of Huntsville... they look at it and (wrongly) think "just another southern town." I think a more modern skyline would definitely help our city image. (Like I said, I know it is rather shallow, but probably true)