Great School Analysis (Huntsville, Hoover, Madison: how much, private schools, teacher salaries)

[ionlife]

The 5 questions listed by gsp4ever are questions people ask if they are trying to get to know some one new and find familiar, common ground. It's human nature to look for a way to CONNECT. And the war between SAHMs and women who work two jobs (Mom and corporate leader/waitress/teacher/counselor/scientist) simply doesn't exist. It is driven by media hype. I have worn both hats, lived both ways, and neither are easy. Usually a SAHM asks if someone works outside the home because they want to know if they can CONNECT during the day, during the week, with that person. It can be very lonely and isolating to be a SAHM (especially in NoVA--type A land) so finding peope with whom you can share that experience is NORMAL.

Sheesh--why is that wrong? And yes, I did take umbrage at the words written regarding "bragging rights." I felt that it was high time I stood up for the other side of the coin. The one where a kid is moved out of a great activity class in 7th grade obsensibly to have access to computers for yearbook class, but in reality to offset the "gangsta kids" (her words) negative behavior. After she was moved into that class, she got witness all kinds of run ins with vice principals and students as well as learn some "colorful words" and "expand her vocabulary" (written in an essay at the end of the year). So, yeah, I felt the need to minimize that from happening again.

Now to the test scores and the correlation between higher scores and dollars per pupil. That is very interesting. And what I find super interesting is that Madison City spent less money than Huntsville City and got better results. Why? Because I believe MOST of the families are vested in their children's education and community.

I've already lived somewhere where that was not the case. In elementary school, that was fine because we were the main agents in our child's life. Once she went into MS and HS, her peers would be the main agents in her life (200 plus miles last week on our car driving her to all of her friends' houses for social connections). I want those peers to, in general, be MOTIVATED and for their parents to want them to excel.

And there are many people in the "bad" school districts who want that as well. That's why schools are asked to perform at certain levels and attain certain bars. While I am not a huge advocate of the NoChildLeftBehind policies in as far as they try to impose that standard of all children reading at grade level by 2014 (how? special needs, foreign language, ESOL, transiency--it's not doable), I do believe that most children can achieve that end--and I'd like to believe that the families who don't have moola or ability to move into areas where "braggin'" occurs, want that for their children. If the schools fail their children, they should have the right to send them to other PUBlIC SCHOOLS who meet those benchmarks.

And, as much as I dreaded the SOLs in VA, I can tell you they proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that my daughter's 5th grade GT Teacher completely abandoned science education to focus only on her pet language arts program. The test results reflected that lack of science education and backed parents' complaints. Even smart kids can't answer questions to advance pass on a test if they aren't taught the material.

Things that make you go hmmmm.

[DvlsAdvc8]

Originally Posted by gsp4ever

BKOTH97--I'm with you on quality public education for all. That is something that is lacking around here. But, it goes beyond just $$$$. Throwing money at everything doesn't always equal success. Huntsville and Madison County have some real "good ol' boy" aspects to them and it's reflected in the leadership and, subsequently, political decisions that are made for the area. Madison less so.

I'm sorry that everyone is so offended at the notion that people in this area brag about where they live and where their kids go to school. It's true and the longer you live here the more you'll notice it. Let me throw another one out there for everyone to get upset about. It's a huge badge of honor to be a stay at home mom or a women who "doesn't have to work" in this area. I'm sure people start out with good intentions about doing what is best for their family, but it quickly turns into the nosy neighbor syndrome where everyone has to ask bunches of questions to size you up.

That's something I've found all across the south. It's the one thing I don't think I'll ever get used to: way more people concerned with "appearances" and being in your business than I'm comfortable with.

On the other hand, one could say people are concerned about appearances in the north east as well, but I think its more accurate to say they're "obsessed with achievement" - which is a little different than what you find in the south; and nobody's in your business, because nobody cares about your business.

Good and bad where ever you go.

[gsp4ever]

Perfectly said, DvlsAdvc8. You hit the nail on the head and I had to give you some rep for it

[BKOTH97]

Because there are a good number of people moving down here from the NoVA area, I thought I would do the same price/performance analysis with schools in that area. I used all school districts within 100 miles of Arlington.

Top 10
1) Henrico County
2) Hanover County
3) Warren County
4) New Kent County
5) King George County
6) Page County
7) Middlesex County
8) Goochland County
9) Statford County
10) Culpeper County

Bottom 10
44) Alexandria City
43) Arlington County
42) Charlottesville City
41) Fredericksburg City
40) Falls Church City
39) Richmond City
38) Colonial Beach
37) King and Queen County
36) Manassas City
35) Winchester City

Alexandria City, the worst price/performance system, spends 25,672 per student and returns a very poor score of 134 (avg of 67% proficiency in Reading and Math). That gives them a price/performance of $191 per point. I will let you do the comparison to Madison, Madison County and Huntsville...wow. A 134 performance score would rank in the bottom 4 of the 81 systems that I pulled from Alabama.

The absolute TOP performing system out of the 44 I pulled in Virginia is Falls Church. They have a Rating of 179 (Avg 89.5%) with a per pupil expenditure of $25,621 and a price/performance rating of $144. Again, from a pure performance standing, Falls Church would rank #8 out of the roughly 125 systems I pulled from Alabama and Virginia.

Top 10 performing Systems:

1) Mountain Brook City, Al
2) Vestavia Hills City, Al
3) Arab City, Al
4) Winfield City, Al
5) Homewood City, Al
6) Hoover City, Al
7) Madison City, Al
8) Falls Church City, Va
9) West Point, Va
10) Muscle Shoals City, Al

The disparity in school funding in Virginia is astounding. The best funded school system from 100 miles around Arlington is Arlington at $26,172. The worst funded is King George at $11,988, or a 118% difference.

Of the ones I pulled from 100 miles around Huntsville, the best funded school system is Homewood at $17,276 and the worst funded is St Clair County at $10,523 or a difference of 64%.

After looking at these numbers, Alabama has nothing to be ashamed about. Heck, NoAl blows NoVA out of the water on a system by system basis. It isn't even close.

Alexandria on the otherhand...wow, they have some serious issues.

[ionlife]

Originally Posted by DvlsAdvc8

That's something I've found all across the south. It's the one thing I don't think I'll ever get used to: way more people concerned with "appearances" and being in your business than I'm comfortable with.

On the other hand, one could say people are concerned about appearances in the north east as well, but I think its more accurate to say they're "obsessed with achievement" - which is a little different than what you find in the south; and nobody's in your business, because nobody cares about your business.

Good and bad where ever you go.

Well said--though I don't mind the south and the people being in my business at all--especially when they kill fire ant nests in my yard for me because they are worried I'll get stung and have an another anaphylactic reaction.

When we were living in NoVA, we were the exception to the rule about "focus only on achievement." Yes school and doing your best is important, but life is a balance.

I like the balanced lifestyle we've found here--it really is a slice of heaven--my own little Andy Griffith piece of Aunt B's Apple Pie!

[vakinderegg]

Interesting breakdown. Falls Church City surprised me since so many people want their children to go to school there and Fairfax did not come close to the top 10 even though TJ high school is one of the best schools in the nation....Langley High too. I taught in fcps. I though all the schools there were pretty good. They have so many resources available for students., especially special needs students. I am hoping Huntsville does too since there is so many high tech corporations here. Alexandria City did not surprise me.

Do teachers have to be certified when they begin teaching in Alabama or do they just have to finish their certification within a 2 year time span? Many areas are in need of teachers and train as they go.....are they doing that here? I did pick my house based on the school....and I can be a SAHM living in Alabama. I had to work in NOVA because it is so expensive to live there. I am not braggin.....just happy I have this opportunity.

[gsp4ever]

I still think it's an over simplification to look at $$$ per student as a major indicator of success or failure. And, speaking of dollars, you can bet your bottom dollar that folks in Alexandria,who are able, are generally NOT sending their kids to TC Williams. OTOH--I suspect Thomas Jefferson (not Alexandria city) could absolutely run circles around any public school we have in this area. Finally, there are sooo many private schools in that metro area (including very large ones like Bishops Ireton and O'Connell) that I suspect that ends up skewing the data for several of the public schools by generally leaving minorities, immigrants and those of generally lower socioeconomic background hanging around in the public schools. It's almost apples and oranges to try to compare NoVA to NoAL

[DvlsAdvc8]

Those price/performance numbers are likely skewed fact that the cost of education in VA is MUCH higher, even if you only take teacher salaries into account. Everything is simply inflated here, but it doesn't mean we're getting less for the money. It's not quite an apples to apples comparison.

You would need to normalize the data by mean income or something like that to get a more comparable gauge of value. This will likely improve NoVA's standing in your price/performance ranking.

ie - NoAL may earn Y, spend X on education/capita and get Z results.
NoVA may earn y+10, spend X+10 on education/capita and get Z results.

The real dollar values don't really indicate "level of effort". Everything is relative.

[BKOTH97]

Originally Posted by gsp4ever

I still think it's an over simplification to look at $$$ per student as a major indicator of success or failure. And, speaking of dollars, you can bet your bottom dollar that folks in Alexandria,who are able, are generally NOT sending their kids to TC Williams. OTOH--I suspect Thomas Jefferson (not Alexandria city) could absolutely run circles around any public school we have in this area. Finally, there are sooo many private schools in that metro area (including very large ones like Bishops Ireton and O'Connell) that I suspect that ends up skewing the data for several of the public schools by generally leaving minorities, immigrants and those of generally lower socioeconomic background hanging around in the public schools. It's almost apples and oranges to try to compare NoVA to NoAL

I wasn't showing that $$ spent is the primary factor in success or failure. For goodness sakes, Alexandria proves that with 100% accuracy...what a waste of money.

There is no doubt that TJ is a WONDERFUL school. Probably the best in the country...but one school doesn't make up a school district or an entire area. If TJ really had the formula figured out, then NoVA in general and Fairfax county in specific would replicate that and it would be evident throughout the school system. It isn't. The comparisons that I put together above are for entire school districts. Fairfax county is spending almost 20K per student and they are definitely getting their monies worth at TJ...but what about the other 163,000 kids in that district? The district as a whole didn't even meet AYP this year.

[BKOTH97]

Originally Posted by DvlsAdvc8

Those price/performance numbers are likely skewed fact that the cost of education in VA is MUCH higher, even if you only take teacher salaries into account. Everything is simply inflated here, but it doesn't mean we're getting less for the money. It's not quite an apples to apples comparison.

You would need to normalize the data by median income or something like that to get a more comparable gauge of value. This will likely improve NoVA's standing in your ranking.

It wouldn't improve their standing in pure performance where per pupil funding is not taken into account.

Top 10 performing systems (Reading, Math):

1) Mountain Brook City, Al (98.6, 98.5)
2) Vestavia Hills City, Al (96, 93.5)
3) Arab City, Al (94.4, 94.1)
4) Winfield City, Al (92.2, 88.3)
5) Homewood City, Al (91.5, 88.4)
6) Hoover City, Al (92.4, 87.4)
7) Madison City, Al (92.5, 86.7)
8) Falls Church City, Va (92.8, 85.7)
9) West Point, Va (90.9, 86.9)
10) Muscle Shoals City, Al (91.1, 86.3)