Fed-up

[HB2HSV]

Originally Posted by DvlsAdvc8

I don't believe this is so much the case with skilled labor. Where unskilled labor is readily available or able to be performed by virtually anyone, skilled labor takes a significant investment - often taking years of training and/or education. That places additional constraints on labor supply. It demands a significant education infrastructure necessary to produce that labor. That infrastructure is extremely expensive. Additionally, not all skilled labor is created equal. There may be a competitive advantage found in hiring the most creative or skilled employees. This would support what we already see - competition among employers for highly skilled labor. Very recently (until the recession), companies (mine included) were sponsoring work visas, not to drive down costs so much - but just to fill open positions. The Universities simply weren't producing the quantity nor quality of skilled labor demanded.

That said, if a company can maintain quality and reduce costs by going overseas they should do so. We live in a global economy - European companies will seek the competitive advantage leaving ours out in the cold unable to compete globally. There really is no choice! Take solace in the fact that nations providing cheap skilled labor cannot do so forever... and the more wealthy they become, the less their advantage and the more they begin to import themselves. The only alternative is not a good one; tariffs on imported goods/services from nations that have such advantages though I'm not sure how you manage that when we're talking Engineering work and information services (additional taxes on domestic companies using overseas labor would only serve to drive those companies to headquarter overseas).

I think you hit the nail on the head there, it all depends on how 'skilled' is the skilled labor. Take software engineering for example, that's an intellectual property can be easily developed in India, China or Korea just as well as in the U.S. Judging the disproportionate % of engineering graduates in those country, it will only be a matter of time before they over take us in software development. In fact, Korea is huge in game software development. Most of online games are developed there.

It all starts with the science & math levels taught starting in elementary school. My 6 yr old niece living in Singapore already knows about multiplication and divisions, and she's not even in the first grade. While our school system argues if it will put too much 'pressure' on our 12 yr old kids to learn algebra. Those countries are several years ahead of our educational system here in the U.S. We are fundamentally lagging behind in this arena.

This shouldn't be a discussion of whether we should or should not be globalizing. This is a matter of determining how we should adapt to the inevitability. My view on this is that our economy will focus more and more on the management and research side of things - and our relative wealth compared to competitors declines (i.e. our standard of living in relation to that of india) but there is no REAL standard of living loss, partly as a result of cheaper imported goods. The temporary competitive advantage that places like india currently enjoy will eventually evaporate - and we will all be better off for it as India becomes an equal trading partner - increasing its own imports.

All of this stuff has a way of balancing itself out.

As an individual or as a corporate entity, I'd agree with your assessment and strategy for competitive edge. But as a nation, we must find roles, places, and means of employment for a major sector of our citizens who are not into technologies, research or managing state of arts stuff. Not everything can be defined by the global economic theory nor by the efficiency argument.

I can not offer a solution on this but simply offer an observation. Simply stated, people want to live, they want to have a mean to make a decent living, and they want to have a sense of purpose on their jobs. How can this country provide that to the people, other than go manage factories in china, without them being threaten by the global competitiveness or the supply of 'cheap labor' of illegal imingrants, is the essence of anger/ fustration expressed by the OP here.

[DvlsAdvc8]

Originally Posted by HB2HSV

I think you hit the nail on the head there, it all depends on how 'skilled' is the skilled labor. Take software engineering for example, that's an intellectual property can be easily developed in India, China or Korea just as well as in the U.S. Judging the disproportionate % of engineering graduates in those country, it will only be a matter of time before they over take us in software development. In fact, Korea is huge in game software development. Most of online games are developed there.

The problem there is you can't build good software without good requirements. Business process analysis and software requirements analysis skills are also fairly high level skills that don't migrate to india well. Lastly, at least in my experience, the majority of businesses run a significant amount of proprietary software that must be very flexible and adaptable - understanding business requirements is something that isn't easily done remotely. Combine that with short turnaround times and constant mid-cycle requirements changes and outsourcing quickly becomes a nightmare more costly than keeping some local SWEs on staff.

The only things I see as easily outsourced are the large "one size fits all" software packages - commercial off the shelf stuff and maybe data centers(?). You'll still need network people, you'll still need locals to build custom on demand apps.

Originally Posted by HB2HSV

It all starts with the science & math levels taught starting in elementary school. My 6 yr old niece living in Singapore already knows about multiplication and divisions, and she's not even in the first grade. While our school system argues if it will put too much 'pressure' on our 12 yr old kids to learn algebra. Those countries are several years ahead of our educational system here in the U.S. We are fundamentally lagging behind in this arena.

Absolutely agree! Meanwhile, the US is more concerned about whether Creationism is getting a fair shake in Science class and whether there should be a sex ed program or not. There is an abhorrent disdain for education and intellectual pursuits in this country. My brother in law has a poor education and works for the railroad, while I have an advanced degree. Whenever we meet, I must endure blathering nonsense about my having all those "book smarts" but I don't know how to do anything... or am somehow less "manly" lol. Meanwhile, I can't even start to explain to him what I do - it might as well be speaking in tongues.

The average person I've met mocks formal education at virtually every opportunity and praises real-world experience as if one is superior to the other. Nonsense I say! The former is a necessary step to getting the most out of the latter! But that said, our schools are woefully inadequate in preparing many students for all but the most menial labor.

Originally Posted by HB2HSV

we must find roles, places, and means of employment for a major sector of our citizens who are not into technologies, research or managing state of arts stuff. Not everything can be defined by the global economic theory nor by the efficiency argument.

Would you like fries with that? Just kidding... but seriously, I'd put money down on service jobs. Manufacturing isn't coming back for a long time. Landscappers, general contractors, transportation, retail etc... the time of good pay for labor with minimal training (assembly line work) is over.

I feel for the frustration - there's just nothing that can be done about it. As I said, in the end one's standard of living being superior to someone elses must be justified by producing something with either higher quality, less cost, or more timely. Something has to give for Mr. Employee... if you don't compete on quality or timeliness... then all that's left is to take less money.

The Japanese and Germans do not have a terribly dissimilar standard of living when compared to the US, yet they seem to be able to compete just fine. No one makes a high quality motorcycle as cheaply as the Japanese.

I honestly expect the future to be one in which the income gap/class stratification in the US becomes increasingly larger.

[DvlsAdvc8]

Good discussion HB, thank you very much.

[Mawoods]

Good points, HB2HSV.