Investigative Reports on HOA Purchases (Huntsville, Madison: homeowners association, loan, how much)

[ionlife]

Originally Posted by Wingfoot

If you want fair,move to Midwest folks, AL is ,and will forever be, good 'ol boy territory.

I think that it is time for Alabama to change that reputation. This area itself is filled with transplants who can make a difference. I know we moved here because we love the south's hospitality, warmth and genuine laid back atmosphere. In general it is a great move. We would love to see more of our cohorts make the move out of NoVA, but they were/are already prejudiced against AL due to this negative perception of the "good ol' boy" routine and now the situation with developers taking advantage of the non-disclosure laws makes them even MORE prejudiced.

I think that is sad. This is a lovely place to raise children and is touted as one of the top 10 areas to live/grow/learn. But people trying to make a decision about this area, might be swayed against coming here if they see how prevalent the power of the good ol' boys is in this area.

[friday13]

Originally Posted by dramamama

I think the buyer should still use a home inspector and check things out like roads being built, ask those questions,

The home inspection is as good as the expertise of the inspector.
What guarantees you have he does a "great" job? "Good" might not be enough. And an entire city cannot use the guy that was recommended on CD (IIRC Mike?), so there will always be less-than-stellar-Mike inspectors out there.
Some could just be "average" performers just because they are, not intentionally. They could miss things - I mean, how thorough one can be if they never used the "product" long enough? In all honesty and good faith, they sign off on the inspection report and a year later you get a crack in the foundation for the grading was "good" but not "perfect" and the water seeped in the crawlspace (or other "minuscule" issue, unnoticeable upon inspection, that grows out to be a money pit to repair).
What recourse would a homeowner have? The bonding and insuring of the home inspector? Homeowner's insurance? I'm sure all parties have solid contracts covering their back for anything. The homeowner is left to fend off for himself in the end.

I am not saying using an inspector is useless, but one should not put ALL his hopes in the inspection.>> Only death and taxes are certain, the saying goes?...

[DvlsAdvc8]

Originally Posted by dramamama

http://glenkirkestates.org/documents...strictions.pdf

This doc is not signed or notarized... so much for that example. Again, we'd have 72 hours to review this document in NoVA.

Don't be so dismissive Drama - I lived there. So much for that example? Did you live there? I guess I'm trying to deceive you too?

Originally Posted by dramamama

I'm not so very impressed by the two examples out of THE MANY I know are out there... but then the caveat is that people do have 72 hours to review the docs and sign off that they accept the terms.

That's great, you haven't shown 1 that doesn't give a builder such power... but you're not impressed by my two that do show it? Nice. As I said, Toll Brothers is one of the largest, if not THE largest builder in Virginia - and they have this same requirement.

No matter where you live you have more than 72 hours to review C&Rs. Just prior to closing is NOT the time to have done this - one should have done this prior to signing the contract to build in the first place.

Originally Posted by dramamama

Here's a cool idea: the builders are actually more protected if they have this in place cause then lazy readers can't go after them if they signed off and later on are ticked off.

Uh... the whole point to a contract is to enforce agreements. When buying a house in AL or anywhere else you are made aware of any covenants and restrictions you must abide by before you even sign a construction contract. At that point, if you sign to build without knowing what is in the C&Rs - whose fault is that?

But that's honestly all beside the point - because as I've tried to show you, builders reserve the power to do as they see fit with their developments until such point as the C&Rs transfer rights to the HOA - whether in full at build out, or by vote (which, for all intents and purposes, is usually the equivalent of full control - given the number of non-voting homeowners).

In fact, every single under-construction development I could think of in Virginia has a clause that gives the developer near full control throughout:

Morris Farm in Gainesville
Virginia Oaks (now built out, but my best friend in VA lives there) in Gainesville
Sudley Manor in Bristow
Braemar in Bristow
Lake Manassas in Gainesville
Piedmont in Haymarket
Somerset in Gainesville
Ashburn Farm in Ashburn
South Riding near Chantilly

I know, because I was looking at all of these when I decided on Glenkirk Estates. They all have developer voting that heavily outwieghs homeowners up until the community is all but complete.

If you're going to demand legislation - do something that will actually help someone, and not something that will just add another nail to the coffin. Unworried, foolish or lazy people gloss over C&Rs regardless - so having a special 72 hour period and explicit sign off isn't going to do anything but put another document in the hands of the developer saying "well, you explicitly signed off on this even after 72 hours of reviewing it."

That's basically what VA did - "you had every chance to back out, you didn't, so tough luck"... but you're still under the boot of the developer everywhere I know and everywhere I can find.

[DvlsAdvc8]

Originally Posted by dramamama

The sellers are able to lie via Caveat Emptor-- I live that reality daily in my development.

Uhm... not really. This is the difference between words and contracts - no matter what state you live in, spoken words are just words. They are utterly irrelevant once a contract is signed. The developer's responsibilities are spelled out clearly. The developer's right to alter the C&R is spelled out clearly.

Caveat Emptor doesn't allow a developer to lie at will. If the developer violates an provision of the contract - you have grounds to sue. If the developer alters provisions of the C&R, well, he's within the rights you agreed to grant him.

Most of the new development in NoVA is a good distance outside the beltway... places like Gainesville, Ashburn, Chantilly/South Riding, Leesburg - and I'm telling you, there have been developer bankruptcies there as well. Whatever new developer buys the development will be able to alter those communities just as easily as they can here in AL.

How many times does it have to be said to homebuyers: "obtain and read your documents before signing anything!"

[Threestep]

Dramamama
I follow your posts about HOA issues because I personally had some which went from major drama to live and let live.

You have thrown verbals at me in the past. As soom as someone does not jump on the band waggon of your rather personal issues you turn drama:>)

You mention the good ol' boys like they have the plague. Well, they are part of life. You may not have encountered them as much in VA as you do here as your social/professional circles may not cross. They are there!

You and your family came to AL not for Southern Hospitality but because you wanted something. Bigger house, working no or one job instead of your two, husband's promotion ... Who knows. Please correct me as I do not want to work my way through the American Shortstory again - in one of your old posts you go on about your daughter's birthday party being very important and the move secondary. You and your husband are educated adults I presume. Buying a house without reading all the fine print is nobody's issue but yours. Nobody twisted your arm and made you sign.

Just FYI - once you are emperor you have the option to change things - until then the laws of VA do not apply to AL.

On a common sense note - you are throwing home inspector and pending infrastructure in one pot. The man checks existing structures for compliance with code and flushes the commodes to see if they work.

To me it sounds like you are bored, on a personal mission and will not make a difference as you are venting hot air. Get your facts straight for starters.

[DvlsAdvc8]

Originally Posted by Homeowner_HSV

It is easy to see why no one directly involved with Laurenwood Preserve should have sympathy for them; after all, they were the one's who agreed to pay contractual agreements that in essence werern't worth the paper they were written on... What were they thinking?

I have plenty of sympathy for them. I think it down right sucks.

That said, my greater principle is that contracts be honored. If you agree to a contract that dictates that you are subject to a C&R wherein it is stated that the developer has the power to change the C&R, then you have no leg to stand on when the developer does indeed change things.

It's completely cherry picking the parts of the original C&R that you think should be honored! Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. One cannot reasonably use the C&R to backup one's desire for "minimum squarefootage requirements" and the like, but on the flip side, deny the developers rights also declared by that C&R.

One agreed to the developer's plan, and one agreed to the developer's right to change that plan. Choosing a developer isn't just choosing the guy who offers the best house for the least money. Looking at some of the new (incomplete) communities around Huntsville - wow, talk about some outrageously ambitious developers! They didn't hedge their bets at all did they?? Are we truly surprised that some failed? It's not only the developer's failure to implement the vision he sold, its the buyers belief that the vision was reasonable.

This is one reason why I favor relatively small developments with a variety of price ranges. They build out sooner, don't have pie in the sky promises and amenities, and thus carry less risk. Just another thing to consider in the personal responsiblity route. I'm channeling my inner conservative (I feel dirty, no offense to the true conservatives out there ).

Drama - I don't know your specific issues, I'm just speaking generally on the subject. I really wish you luck in finding a fair arrangement for all parties.

[TimG]

Originally Posted by dramamama

realtors and agents selling should be held to a standard of TRUTH. IMHO.

They are because all licensed brokers and agents in Alabama are required by law to disclose any defects they are personally aware of or they can be held liable in a court of law.

However, a buyer's agent is only privy to the defects they can personally identify while viewing the home and the seller may or may not disclose defects to the listing agent, so it looks like ignorance is bliss in this case.

In any case, in Alabama, buyers must protect themselves in my view by using contingencies on contract offers to obtain the desired seller and hoa disclosures and follow-up with an independent home inspection. If all is agreeable then clear the contingencies. Having moved here from Seattle where it is definitely a 'seller beware' state I did these things to protect myself.

...so funny a home a bought Meridianville and have since sold, I requested that the seller pump the septic and take his ^&**() along with him ...lol no one here had ever heard of such a requirement to purchase a home, but in Washington state it was a legal mandate ...lol

[DvlsAdvc8]

Originally Posted by Homeowner_HSV

Maybe what I have failed to establish is that a new developer (not the one who the homeowners signed the contract with, and with the bank's own lawyer directly denying knowledge of such only a few days earlier) has changed the original CC&Rs by ammending OUT LP's provisions (like "all brick" construction, roof pitch from 8/12 to 6/12, requirements for architectural shingles, 100 lines or so removed regarding neighborhood lanscaping, [replaced with a simple line that states "...landscaping is encouraged"] and, therefore, has started changing the dynamics of their neighborhood, but not necessarily for the better.

I really appreciate the tone of your posts. I always reflect the person I'm replying to - makes me look schizophrenic, but I definitely prefer the calm courteous discussions.

I have to say if I were in LP, I'd be pissed. I can relate to what they're probably feeling. From a legal standpoint though, the new builder is within his rights. A C&R's is not a contracts with you requiring that that the developer only build brick homes in the community. It is a restriction on the consumer that the individual consumer agrees to abide by. The consumer only feels like its a contract because his goals seemingly align with that of the developer - proping up home values through high standards.

That's really what all the fuss is about. Developers everywhere reserve the right to do with their developments as they see fit in order to sell lots... its not unique to AL. In the vast majority of cases - all goes well. You buy into the community expecting that standard to be upheld, and normally it is, because the developer has profit incentive in keeping the value as high as possible. Virtually all C&Rs define the "declarant" in terms that include a new developer who buys the property - in VA, its not even uncommon for it to be multiple developers/builders splitting up a community and thus they often have various classes of voters (imagine how interesting that can get!)... each one of them becoming a member of the "declarant class".

So as I've posted before, C&R's are not intended to protect you from the developer. They protect the developer from YOU first and foremost, and then protect you from your neighbors. I don't think many people realize this fact, because when you think of an HOA, you think of completed established neighborhoods regulating their members in defense of property values.

It truly sucks to be a homeowner in such a position, but it sucks pretty hard for the original developer and the bank too. If you want to do something to solve the real issue, you must require some sort of solvency disclosure from developers such that you can compare them on their likelihood of failure - still won't eliminate the possibility of failure, but it would provide incentives for developers to avoid over extending themselves.

In the end though, the unsold lots have to be reclaimed, and you can't do it by repeating the flawed vision of the original developer. Any new developer has incentive to get as much as he possibly can for those lots. If he can't get anything close to the price which existing homeowners paid - then those existing homeowners aren't really worse off, their property value is already in the can. A house isn't worth anything without a buyer.

[ionlife]

The original developer might have been over-zealous in pushing dirt in the hopes of making a lot of money from the big bucks they believed were coming in via the BRAC. I've shared the news reports with my friends up north, two of who are realtors or in the banking/development industry. And they are appalled by the way things happen here. So I don't quite get DvlsAdvc8t's position that the way business is done here is the way it is done everywhere. Frankly, I looked at the two links posted by that poster, and didn't see proof of the claim.

Now if you are a concerned homeowner who believes you can make a difference and help AL change it's current direction with the way business is done here, then read below.

The Alabama Concerned Homeowners Alliance

cordially invites you to
participate in a roundtable discussion of problems facing Homeowners Associations and explore possible solutions.
Participants will include municipal, county and state officials and Alliance Directors.
Please join us in

The Madison City Council Chambers

100 Hughes Road, Madison, AL 35758
Maps Google | Windows Live

Wed, Sept23,2009 at 6:30 PM

This meeting will be open to the public with a question and answer session at the conclusion of discussions.

Please RSVP at your earliest convenience. If you are unable to attend, it is requested that you designate a participant to participate.

The following links are provided to familiarize you with some of the issues for discussions:

American Nightmare: Alabama Lacks HOA Disclosure Law - WHNT

American Nightmare: Huntsville Homeowners Face Threat To Property Value - WHNT

Builder's woes stir property concerns - al.com

[djmaxwell]

Originally Posted by Homeowner_HSV

250+ multiple-family (even though they are supposed to be single, we know how that works) dwellings;

Actually, for those of us who don't know how that works, please explain it to us.