Selling out Idaho (and the US) (Boise, Idaho Falls: how much, house, buying)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Parsing a persons posts on a message board doesn't really work. A message board is much more a flow of consciousness than a book or article. I take a post on a message board by its face and don't try to read into it anything more. Looking for a hidden boogeyman in separate words in a post takes away from the intended flow of thought by the OP.
One could argue that the left sees the world through a post modern lens. This would enable them to rationalize how they see America and themselves and immigration, the past is dead, modernity is over...or something to that effect.
I have spent more time trying to fix what the books are teaching than I care to. As a history teacher the books I have been told to use in class have been near useless. I end up making photocopies of my own personal books to use in class.
Well, I guess we can only take what we're given, no? If you think that by dissecting the poster's message and emphasizing certain language that I missed or glossed over her overall theme or "flow of thought" then you're mistaken and you should reread what I wrote.
Your second paragraph is merely your opinion and, frankly, I don't think its very accurate or informative at all. But then, that's just my opinion.
Your last post is more telling. As a history teacher you hold enormous power in what you expose your students to. And, for the most part, those lessons will always be a reflection of your particular biases, regardless of how close you might follow the curriculum. If nothing else, postmodernism (since we keep on using this term obscurely and generally) teaches us to be aware of those biases in any narrative or lesson.
As you know, many will ignore or forget what you teach, while some will have the aptitude and curiosity to take your lessons with a critical eye, contextualize them, and figure it out for themselves. Sadly, there are always a few who are "indoctrinated" (for lack of a better term) by any teacher's lesson, and really we probably can't worry too much about them.
I would agree that education includes a certain amount of passive indoctrination consisting of a hybrid between the textbooks and the teacher's person biases.
It's MY view that since the late 60's to early 70's a major (I won't say "paradigm"...hahaha) shift has happened in more politically correct views, and "critical thinking" shifting from critical review of information received to "be critical of what has been taught in the past" which I believe is a fundamental misapplication of critical thinking methodology.
I find it interesting that homeschooling curriculum (not religious mind you, although many who homeschool for religious reasons also follow it) that focuses on the classical education method do not include the more "modern" educational methodology loved by progressives, and tend to focus on original primary sources, latin, logic, critical thinking applied to ALL information received, etc.
The classical education method results in students graduating high school with the equivalent of a General Studies B.A. degree. Interestingly enough, it tends to create students more in line with the pre-progressive "indoctrination".
I guess my point here is that HP1167 is a very intelligent and educated individual, but it's my view that modern academia doesn't have the corner on the best way to educate our children and create American citizens (although by and large they THINK the are the only solution).
In places like North Idaho, the curriculum the schools are provided seems to be tempered with teachers who have an "old school" bent on things barring a few "progressives" which I find to be an interesting mix. Up here, even left-of-center people we know are more "southern democrat" (now called "Blue Dog") coming out of our public school system.
Since the children we turn out from our school system and homeschool families will heavily impact the future of our area, state, and country, I'm personally happy for the general approach in our public schools here by and large. I think it's turning out good citizens...and good Idahoans.
I would agree that education includes a certain amount of passive indoctrination consisting of a hybrid between the textbooks and the teacher's person biases.
It's MY view that since the late 60's to early 70's a major (I won't say "paradigm"...hahaha) shift has happened in more politically correct views, and "critical thinking" shifting from critical review of information received to "be critical of what has been taught in the past" which I believe is a fundamental misapplication of critical thinking methodology.
I think it's a combination of both, really, though I do agree with the assessment.
It is far too difficult to explain here, but it is pretty much without debate that rationality, "truth" and certainty have reached their limit, philosophically speaking. That is to say, there are insurmountable problems with knowledge and knowing based on situation, circumstance, language, perception and even logic, which has mired us in what people label "postmodernism" or "subjectivism." Even science inevitably leads us to that conclusion (read up on "paradigm shifts," falsifiability, and the scientific method as it relates to laws and theories).
Science certainly works, and for the most part we operate with a strong faith in science and our perception to the point we consider there to be a "truth" out there... and it works most of the time.
Your assessment that modern critical education emphasizes resisting traditional narratives is accurate, because there is nothing inherently correct, accurate, or right about traditional narratives. Being critical of the past, of the hidden biases or implications in someone's narrative, is invaluable.
But it is not mutually exclusive to a "critical review of information." Not at all. In fact, this is even important now because of the proliferation of information (and how easy it is to access). If anything, the problem is information overload, and students (or anyone, really) supplanting information with actual knowledge (as I've said all along, being about to understand information in context is an important lesson of critical theory).
Political "correctness" is important for a number of reasons, simply because of the relationship between culture, power and information. Also, we're simply a more diverse, global society.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle
I find it interesting that homeschooling curriculum (not religious mind you, although many who homeschool for religious reasons also follow it) that focuses on the classical education method do not include the more "modern" educational methodology loved by progressives, and tend to focus on original primary sources, latin, logic, critical thinking applied to ALL information received, etc.
This is not isolated to homeschool curriculum; a large number of really great liberal arts colleges focus on a classic education curriculum - check out Reed College, St. John's (NM), or St. Mary's College of CA - or Wiki "Great Books."
I'm not sure how this is exclusive to public schools or university, either. For the most part we can agree the math and science are likely the same. I do think there is a basic lesson in history, grammar/language, and civics/government that is fairly similar. I guess I don't see a great deal of high-level critical thinking going on in secondary school, simply because there's no way they can understand it.
Methodologically there may be a difference in how each think students learn, and thus there are different ways in teaching. I do know in my case some of the older teachers favor memorization and recitation while newer teachers tend to be more open book, open note, with the idea being they'd rather you understand the lesson conceptually than simply memorize and regurgitate facts or formulas. Again, if anything, this "modern" methodology emphasizes critical understanding rather than fact-accumulation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle
The classical education method results in students graduating high school with the equivalent of a General Studies B.A. degree. Interestingly enough, it tends to create students more in line with the pre-progressive "indoctrination".
You should flush this point out more. It would be my opinion that home-schooled children benefit from more individual attention and tailored curricula, so it is not surprising they are ahead of the curve - they move at a faster and more individualized pace.
I'm not sure there is anything that would suggest any disposition or predisposition to "indoctrination" amongst home schooled kids. Remember, it is the liberal argument that home schooled kids are the ones being unfairly indoctrinated by their parents, typically religiously, but not always (the trope being that home-schooling is a venue for the radical or religious right). Both you and I know how silly that is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle
I guess my point here is that HP1167 is a very intelligent and educated individual, but it's my view that modern academia doesn't have the corner on the best way to educate our children and create American citizens (although by and large they THINK the are the only solution).
Not ironically, critical theory AND postmodernism suggests the VERY SAME THING! In fact, they stress a plurality of views, resisting single narratives, ambiguity, and the absence of correct or "right" opinions.
In places like North Idaho, the curriculum the schools are provided seems to be tempered with teachers who have an "old school" bent on things barring a few "progressives" which I find to be an interesting mix. Up here, even left-of-center people we know are more "southern democrat" (now called "Blue Dog") coming out of our public school system.
Frankly, this is not unlike anywhere else in Idaho (and perhaps the NW). Southern Idaho still has "good ol' boy" teachers too. Keep in mind that Idaho teachers still predominately come from Idaho schools, and the methodologies taught at UI, BSU, CoI, ISU and LSCS are fairly similar ("progressive," to use your preferred dirty word).
I do agree that even being left of center in Idaho is fairly moderate (to be simple). A colleague of mine, when he lived in Pennsylvania, considered himself to be fairly right of center there... and here in Idaho he's considered fairly left of center. So...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle
Since the children we turn out from our school system and homeschool families will heavily impact the future of our area, state, and country, I'm personally happy for the general approach in our public schools here by and large. I think it's turning out good citizens...and good Idahoans.
Actually, I somewhat disagree here. I think by and large parents here do a good job of raising citizens and Idahoans, but I think our school system is not doing a great job educating students. I think this is a resource issue as well as an institutional issue, though (ironically) it goes back to something you mentioned earlier.
One of the downfalls of a modern/progressive education methodology is that, in my opinion, when it works it works well. When it doesn't work, it fails miserably. I think most kids leave school not knowing facts or information (more of a classical methodology), but also unable or unwilling to process, conceptualize and contextualize their information as well. The result: they don't know anything, even though their transcripts have AP courses and high GPA's.
(Just for the record, I favor a mix of classical and progressive methodology - students need to work harder and longer).
On this point we both agree. I'm constantly surprised (though I no longer should be) at the frightfully ignorant people graduating from our secondary schools AND from universities...both public and private. As an employer, it's downright disheartening at times.
We're creating a generation of Google-searchers and data-compilers who seem to have diminished interest (and less ability) in understanding "information" (the "Wikipedia complex"), and the majority of young people seem to conflate being able to "master" a medium (internet/technology) with actual intelligence.
While Idaho is "behind the curve" of much of the rest of the country going down this unfortunate path (at least North Idaho is due to both economics and predominantly rural lifestyle), it's on the horizon for us as well and in many ways it's already here.
I think the best thing that could happen to the education of our kids would be to TOTALLY abolish the Department of Education. Education is the responsibility of each state and ultimately each individual local school board. Do you honestly believe that some bureaucrat in Washington, D.C. knows more about what is needed to educate your children than local school board members? We have seen our education system slip from one of the best in the World to Third World levels in the past fifty years. Get the Feds out of it.
On this point we both agree. I'm constantly surprised (though I no longer should be) at the frightfully ignorant people graduating from our secondary schools AND from universities...both public and private. As an employer, it's downright disheartening at times.
We're creating a generation of Google-searchers and data-compilers who seem to have diminished interest (and less ability) in understanding "information" (the "Wikipedia complex"), and the majority of young people seem to conflate being able to "master" a medium (internet/technology) with actual intelligence.
While Idaho is "behind the curve" of much of the rest of the country going down this unfortunate path (at least North Idaho is due to both economics and predominantly rural lifestyle), it's on the horizon for us as well and in many ways it's already here.
I agree, Sage.
Kids today are truly becoming less and less prepared for real-world jobs. The most important thing school teaches are the fundamental skills of communication and math, but history, civics, another language, and the arts are also important. The kids today have a very shaky knowledge of the 2 big ones, and know almost nothing of the others.
Colleges' most vital function is teaching young adults how to think critically. Critical thinking develops good judgement, independent thought, and awareness of potential consequences and errors.
Without that, everything else that is taught amounts to nothing but details. GIGO- garbage in, garbage out.
There is plenty of blame to go around on all levels from the school districts all the way up, but I think that the basic problem is teachers are not seen as being trained professionals who are vital to our society. We pay, consider, and trust engineers who design our roads and buildings, doctors who tend to our health, lawyers who service our disputes, and marketers who sell our products what they ask for their work, but we fight teachers tooth and nail for every penny we pay them. They simply don't get much respect.
It wasn't always this way. I don't know why this attitude emerged, but teachers are essential to our nation's prosperity, and are needed more than ever right now.
That is where in so many ways the private school model is far superior, where there are more teachers per admin staff by far. I understand that the nature of a public school requires additional staff (counselors or school nurse, etc), but even small school districts like North Idaho have MASSIVE non-teaching staff.
In a way, the public school system reminds me of the old night watchan story....
***
Once upon a time the government had a vast scrap yard in the middle of a desert. Congress said, “Someone may steal from it at night.” So they created a night watchman position and hired a person for the job.
Then Congress said, “How does the watchman do his job without instruction?” So they created a planning department and hired two people, one person to write the instructions and one person to do time studies.
Then Congress said, “How will we know the night watchman is doing the tasks correctly?” So they created a Quality Control department and hired two people, one to do the studies and one to write the reports.
Then Congress said, “How are these people going to get paid?” So they created two positions, a time keeper and a payroll officer, then hired two people.
Then Congress said, “Who will be accountable for all of these people?” So they created an administrative section and hired three people, an Administrative Officer, an Assistant Administrative Officer, and a Legal Secretary.
Then Congress said, “We have had this command in operation for one year, and we are $918,000 over budget. We must cut back.”
So they laid off the night watchman.
****
Substitute "teacher" for the night watchman and I often feel this story hits close to home. Every time I hear them cutting back teachers or increasing class sizes, I think of this story....
In 2010, LA Unified School District spent $584,000,000 (yes, that's $584 MILLION) building ONE "flagship" school. How many teachers paid the price for THAT one? Ugh...don't get me started...
But it is not mutually exclusive to a "critical review of information." Not at all. In fact, this is even important now because of the proliferation of information (and how easy it is to access). If anything, the problem is information overload, and students (or anyone, really) supplanting information with actual knowledge (as I've said all along, being about to understand information in contextis an important lesson of critical theory).
Understanding information in context is so important, and that is a skill to adapt that is sadly lacking from kids coming out of our school systems. All of these points laid out in the earlier posts are spot on-very interesting information and sadly-very true as well.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
