More on trains (transfer, bankrupt, inspections)

[2nd trick op]

Originally Posted by clearwater66

The American Indian tribes of the northwest would not agree with you. They were opposed to the construction of the pipeline and prepared to declare war against the construction companies who attempted to desecrate the land. Specifically the Sioux Indian tribes (I Believe there are about 5000 in Idaho) had planned secret guerrilla tactics, the least of which would be laying down in front of heavy equipment and they invited all Americans to join them. Most tribes were in agreement.

Eden Keeper | A site dedicated to our faithful stewardship of creation and exploring the relationship between faith and environmentalism.

This is the movement I intend to join, if necessary.

You can join any movement you like: industrialized civilization requires a system of transportation, and that operation involves risk. That risk can be identified, measured and reduced, but there is no absolute security on this side of the cemetery.

Not to favor either mode, but deaths and injuries from railroad operation, passengers and bystanders as well as employees, and freight as well as passenger, have been documented by regulators for over a century; the actual figure today is usually between 10% and 15% of that between 1900-1910 (the period most cited for industrial accidents and disasters) and when the increase in both population and the amount of freight moved is factored in that figure improves by a multiple of roughly 3 to 5.

If you and to run around in a loincloth, it's your business, but don't blame the productive portions of society when it gets cold.

[clearwater66]

So....can you please state for the listening audience how many times in rail history have there been 100 tanker cars filled with nasty, dirty, tar sands oil (that doesn't belong to us, being shipped overseas) transported across one of the last remaining gorgeous, pristine environs remaining in this country?

See, if you lived in Idaho, you would how much there is to lose.

Since you want to be thought of as an authority, do you think it would be a good idea to read "Heavy Traffic Ahead" that was linked in a previous post?

And is there a good reason we have to race to the brink of extinction because we are not willing to find better alternatives?

Loin cloth? Is that the way you envision American Indians dressing?

[2nd trick op]

Originally Posted by clearwater66

So....can you please state for the listening audience how many times in rail history have there been 100 tanker cars filled with nasty, dirty, tar sands oil (that doesn't belong to us, being shipped overseas) transported across one of the last remaining gorgeous, pristine environs remaining in this country?

See, if you lived in Idaho, you would how much there is to lose.

Since you want to be thought of as an authority, do you think it would be a good idea to read "Heavy Traffic Ahead" that was linked in a previous post?

You might want to do a little research yourself -- on how crude oil moved from Texas and Oklahoma in solid trains of tank cars, using steam locomotives during World War II, to avoid Nazi submarines preying on coastal shipping. The book in question is S. Kip Farrington's Railroads at War, complete with photos.

And is there a good reason we have to race to the brink of extinction because we are not willing to find better alternatives?

Loin cloth? Is that the way you envision American Indians dressing?

No - I'm responding to someone who has no understanding of how the mass production of an industrialized world is organized and distributed, and doesn't want to learn; just goes whining to Big Brother in hopes of protecting his/her pretty fantasy -- no thought of how the costs add up for those trying to earn a living and raise a family amid the grit and sweat of the real world.

Extinction?? Get real!! I think it's pretty clear who's doing most of the exaggerating and emotionalizing.

Do yourself a favor -- read a book like Upton Sinclair's The Jungle -- and try to understand that we didn't evolve beyond that just because politicians passed laws. It was a joint effort balancing what everybody agrees would be clean and safe against what the nation could afford.

The rules governing hard choices usually favor those with the numbers -- and a handful of extremists in a remote area usually don't have the numbers.

[clearwater66]

Just happened

Freight train carrying crude oil derails near Illinois city

EXCERPT: Since 2008, derailments of oil trains in the U.S. and Canada have seen 70,000-gallon tank cars break open and ignite on multiple occasions, resulting in huge fires. A train carrying Bakken crude crashed in a Quebec town in 2013, killing 47 people. Last month, a train carrying 3 million gallons of North Dakota crude derailed in a West Virginia snowstorm, shooting fireballs into the sky, leaking oil into a river tributary and forcing hundreds of families to evacuate.

For their time...2nd trick...1905 and 1944, the books you recommended were timely but not now. Our present day problems need greater technology and more enlightened thinking. I cannot take your views seriously. And isn't the anger you express also an emotion?

All the readers in Idaho have to consider is what our land will look like, if this happens here and if they are willing to take risk and nothing more.

[Cnynrat]

Originally Posted by clearwater66

All the readers in Idaho have to consider is what our land will look like, if this happens here and if they are willing to take risk and nothing more.

I doubt anyone here who has given even two moments of thought about it doesn't recognize that carrying lots of oil by train represents a risk to north Idaho's residents and to our environment. Further, I'm sure everybody here cares enough about north Idaho that they don't want to see the sorts of accidents that have happened in other areas happen here.

The question is what is the best way to reduce, or even better eliminate that risk. Given the limited role that states and local communities have in regulating rail traffic (as noted above, like it or not it's a federal issue), I continue to believe that the best outcome is for pipeline(s) to be built as they are orders of magnitude more safe than transporting oil by train.

Short of a pipeline being built the next best alternative is to make sure Idaho's representatives at the federal level are doing what they can to ensure the DOT is imposing all the right requirements on the rail companies to ensure it's done in as safe a manner as we know how.

Thinking that anyone can stop the production and movement of oil altogether isn't realistic IMO.

Dave

[Sagle Sam]

In my opinion:

Pipeline > Trains > Semi Trucks

I could argue that loin-cloth could be at either end of this comparison chart.

[clearwater66]

Just got off the phone with some emergency management people in Bonner County.

Those conversations went as follows:

No rural community in Idaho is prepared for an oil tanker disaster. In that event, they will be requesting help from Spokane and out-of-state, if necessary. I was told that every individual and every head of household has a responsibility to be sure the family is evacuated to a safe zone that is at least a mile from the accident.

There are not enough professional firefighters to take care of this problem and more volunteers are welcome.

My contact said that this is like living in a hurricane or earthquake environment.

He said if the incident were to occur in Sandpoint head west.

And he added that these accidents occur about 10 times per year.

I hope this helps.

[Clark Fork Fantast]

Just consider, also, that NID as well as NW Montana is in extreme danger of another Big Burn. We can be as responsible as is humanly possible, but we can't protect ourselves against lightning strikes, fools with campfires (like the guy who started the San Diego Cedar fire in 2003), OR burning oil spills. It terrified me to see the rural IL fire just now on TV. If that happens in late summer in the NW, all of our forests could go up in flames. Yes, there could be plenty of other reasons why that might happen. But the crude oil is now ad additional concern.

I am absolutely not against progress. I don't think every spider should be saved and cherished for the sake of the environment. But I think it is a misunderstanding to discount local concerns--because as much as somebody might want to cry "NIMBY-ism," our lives are spent at the local level, not in the Greater Picture. It is both legitimate and rational to worry about local impact--it is downright good citizenship.

But my worry is actually more along the lines of what Toyman says. Accidents are a terrifying possibility, but local congestion is going to be a given. Those living anywhere within a mile of the tracks will be affected by increased noise levels and (coal trains) dust pollution. And so many of the NID roads cross the tracks. We will be stuck there every single day and night--and emergency vehicles won't be able to get through. And that will be the "new normal." On River Road in CF there are only two ways to cross the river, at Heron across the old one-lane bridge (not suited for an evacuation, anyway), and at Clark Fork. Both roads cross the tracks. In an emergency everybody on the south side of the river will be stuck if a train/trains block the crossing/crossings. So the solution could be to build overpasses. That would be great, but that takes time and money.

So, 2nd Trick, I appreciate your railroad enthusiasm (your bio), but you are not familiar with the current North Idaho situation. And besides, there is no need for name-calling. This is a congenial forum.

[mistyriver]

Originally Posted by Clark Fork Fantast

Just consider, also, that NID as well as NW Montana is in extreme danger of another Big Burn. We can be as responsible as is humanly possible, but we can't protect ourselves against lightning strikes, fools with campfires (like the guy who started the San Diego Cedar fire in 2003), OR burning oil spills. It terrified me to see the rural IL fire just now on TV. If that happens in late summer in the NW, all of our forests could go up in flames. Yes, there could be plenty of other reasons why that might happen. But the crude oil is now ad additional concern.

I am absolutely not against progress. I don't think every spider should be saved and cherished for the sake of the environment. But I think it is a misunderstanding to discount local concerns--because as much as somebody might want to cry "NIMBY-ism," our lives are spent at the local level, not in the Greater Picture. It is both legitimate and rational to worry about local impact--it is downright good citizenship.

But my worry is actually more along the lines of what Toyman says. Accidents are a terrifying possibility, but local congestion is going to be a given. Those living anywhere within a mile of the tracks will be affected by increased noise levels and (coal trains) dust pollution. And so many of the NID roads cross the tracks. We will be stuck there every single day and night--and emergency vehicles won't be able to get through. And that will be the "new normal." On River Road in CF there are only two ways to cross the river, at Heron across the old one-lane bridge (not suited for an evacuation, anyway), and at Clark Fork. Both roads cross the tracks. In an emergency everybody on the south side of the river will be stuck if a train/trains block the crossing/crossings. So the solution could be to build overpasses. That would be great, but that takes time and money.

So, 2nd Trick, I appreciate your railroad enthusiasm (your bio), but you are not familiar with the current North Idaho situation. And besides, there is no need for name-calling. This is a congenial forum.

[clearwater66]

Can someone develop an app that would notify residents of when a train is coming? This is done in cities (like San Francisco). When people are waiting for a bus, they can find out within a minute when it is due to arrive?

Or, can a neighborhood watch be set up, when a train is approaching, someone down the line can relay the information via a text message?

Really sorry for the terrible inconvenience.