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Old 02-14-2015, 11:11 AM
 
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I thought someone from C'dA would start a thread about this, since the word in South Idaho is it the Reservation Casino in ID is funding and fueling the repeal of Historic Horse Racing. The repeal of the current law will eliminate horse racing in Idaho as the purses are too small so racers will go to surrounding states with their horses.

Here's a link Double Down Blog Archive Idaho Historical Racing : The FACTS - Double Down

The Idaho Statesman and any other news media that covers the Legislature and especially C'dA, Boise and Idaho Falls well have more coverage due to the race tracks and "machines" being in those locations.

I don't think this needs repealed and I don't bet on or go to horse races. What do you think?

MSR
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Old 02-14-2015, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Idaho
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As the state cannot control civil matters in a reservation, the reservation needs to keep their nose out of what goes on outside a reservation, so long as it does not affect a civil rights scenario.
In other words...who care what the Indians want?
And on that, I close and will not get bogged down into a debate about Indian rights. Goodbye...
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Old 02-14-2015, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Wayward Pines,ID
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The paper has had a bunch of headlines on it lately, just did not pique my interest. It is a big muy-macho contest. Greyhound park goes through wickets to get pari-mutual wagering "Historic" racing machines. Wait says the tribe, those are nothing more than thinly veiled slot machines. Foul-foul get rid of these immediately! Then the political pinheads say wait, according to the Idaho constitution ALL slots are illegal so the tribes can't have them either. Foul -foul and so it continues...
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Old 02-14-2015, 01:30 PM
 
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I don't pay much attention to any of it either. Gambling seems like a stupid waste of time and money to me.
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Old 02-14-2015, 11:19 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
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There's a sports bar here in I.F. that has the machines.
From their website, the machines do look like slots, but they might not work the same way slot machines work. I think I'll go check them out next week.

Traditional pari-mutual betting involves actually watching the horses race in some fashion- by CCTV, in person, or some other means, possibly like using internet streaming. "Historic" pari-mutual seems to be running old historic races of the past where the winner was determined, so I'm stumped as to how the machines would display that.

Possibly, they're showing 5 different races at once, so a better would be betting a race against another, not one horse against another. Since winning times always vary from one race to another- the winner never comes in at the exact same time some other winner in a different race does- that's all I can think of. But that's not horse racing at all in the traditional sense. Betting horse against horse is much different than betting race against race.

If a traditional horse race has 10 horses running in a race, the odds are basically 10-1. If 2 races are the bet, with 10 horses in each race, the odds are basically 20-1.
This is considering all the horses are equally fast. In a real race, there are always horses that always run faster than others in the race. To make the odds more even, the horses are handicapped. Handicaps dramatically increase the odds.

Pari-mutual betting is placing a bet in a bettor's pool, not placing a bet against the house (a track, in horse racing). The overhead is taken out off the top, and the rest is distributed to the winners. This is allowed in Idaho; all tracks have pari-mutual booths.

I seriously doubt the experience using the machines is anything at all like watching a horse race, at least from the looks of the machine.
http://www.idahofallssportsbar.com/w...g-machines.jpg

I don't know why they were outlawed. It could have had something to do with how the old machines could be rigged by the bettor to pay off when they shouldn't. There were ways to rig them- using magnets, hand tools like lock picks, etc. The owners of the machines could also set them so tight they never paid off a big winning jackpot as required by law. Gambling always has lots of problems that come along with the enterprise.

When I was a kid, slots were legal in Idaho. I remember swing them in the lobbies of restaurants and lounges all over town. Other traditional forms of gambling were not, such as a faro table, roulette, dice, or card games with betting against the house. Private betting card games are legal, and some of the running games in the old bars all over the state have been going on for as long as the bar has existed. The bar takes a small amount of every pot for over head.

Ford's Bar, one of Idaho Falls' oldest, has been running a non-stop game for 100 years, and the Bouquet in Boise has a game that's at least 30 years older. The oldest card game in either isn't poker. It's pan, a Basque card game. Wallace used to have some long-running games.
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Old 02-15-2015, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Idaho
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I don't gamble, other than an occasional lottery ticket. However, like most other social issues, if my neighbor wants to gamble, it should be allowed.
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Old 02-15-2015, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Wayward Pines,ID
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Ok MSR you got me sucked into this thing now...

Here is a quick vid of an actual machine where you can see the horses racing on that little screen in the middle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=WCp9kpzWWng


This site has a pic from the Greyhound Park up here in Post Falls:
Indian Gaming > Editorial: Ban instant horse race machines at non-Indian tracks

This article gives a bit on insight on the money we are talking about here:
Horse race machines near the finish line - Horse race machines near the finish line: Members

" Double Down Betting Sports Bar in Idaho Falls, which features 30 of the machines. Machine bettors at Les Bois Park in Boise wagered over $7 million last October according to the Idaho Racing Commission. The park paid $901,920 in taxes generated by the machines in 2014"

and about how they work;
"
$3 million to install the machines Dec. 15 in his Double Down Betting bar in Idaho Falls, Sandy Downs General Manager Jim Bernard says patrons from Pocatello and Blackfoot regularly use them and simulcast wagering. He rejects the comparison between historical racing and slot machines.

“There’s no slot machine in the world that you can actually pick your numbers on,” he said. “You can actually select which number horses you want to choose from. You can pick anything from one to 10 on numbers based on information that’s provided on the side of the screen. You get to look at different statistics like how many times the horse, jockey or trainer has been in the money. It’s an actual race, one of 10,000 in the data bank.”

And because races are presented to a pool of bettors from all over the country, it fits the definition of pari-mutuel betting, Bernard said, adding that there’s a win, place and show pool for each race. The house’s take averages 7 percent and 40 percent goes to the state"

Here is the developer:
Instant racing developer from Arkansas tells senators there's no difference between 'instant racing' and 'historical racing' | The Spokesman-Review

and the patent:
Patent US6358150 - Methods and apparatus for parimutuel historical gaming - Google Patents
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Old 02-15-2015, 05:19 PM
 
8,440 posts, read 10,712,685 times
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Smile Thanks for the References

Quote:
Originally Posted by elousv View Post
Ok MSR you got me sucked into this thing now...

Here is a quick vid of an actual machine where you can see the horses racing on that little screen in the middle:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=WCp9kpzWWng


This site has a pic from the Greyhound Park up here in Post Falls:
Indian Gaming > Editorial: Ban instant horse race machines at non-Indian tracks

This article gives a bit on insight on the money we are talking about here:
Horse race machines near the finish line - Horse race machines near the finish line: Members

" Double Down Betting Sports Bar in Idaho Falls, which features 30 of the machines. Machine bettors at Les Bois Park in Boise wagered over $7 million last October according to the Idaho Racing Commission. The park paid $901,920 in taxes generated by the machines in 2014"

and about how they work;
"
$3 million to install the machines Dec. 15 in his Double Down Betting bar in Idaho Falls, Sandy Downs General Manager Jim Bernard says patrons from Pocatello and Blackfoot regularly use them and simulcast wagering. He rejects the comparison between historical racing and slot machines.

“There’s no slot machine in the world that you can actually pick your numbers on,” he said. “You can actually select which number horses you want to choose from. You can pick anything from one to 10 on numbers based on information that’s provided on the side of the screen. You get to look at different statistics like how many times the horse, jockey or trainer has been in the money. It’s an actual race, one of 10,000 in the data bank.”

And because races are presented to a pool of bettors from all over the country, it fits the definition of pari-mutuel betting, Bernard said, adding that there’s a win, place and show pool for each race. The house’s take averages 7 percent and 40 percent goes to the state"

Here is the developer:
Instant racing developer from Arkansas tells senators there's no difference between 'instant racing' and 'historical racing' | The Spokesman-Review

and the patent:
Patent US6358150 - Methods and apparatus for parimutuel historical gaming - Google Patents
Gee elousv, I didn't mean to make you have to find all of these additional articles from what
I initially posted. I thought you had basically seen the headlines but not gotten into the articles I do appreciate all of your effort and will try to give you a rep point

I've found the posts interesting. The races are races over many decades, I believe. Limited information is provided about the horse races prior to betting.

Articles I've read but can't repost say millions of dollars have poured into the state education fund from the betting and basically beginning horse races again at tracks where horses were coming from out of state. The Doubled Down Bar and Grill had 30 machines at a sports bar away from the traçk. My understanding is Double Down has invested millions as they leased additional space and bought approximately 30 more machines.

As I originally stated, I don't bet or go to the races. Misty and I kind of have the same level of interest; however, there are a few points to be made for me.

1. I don't care if others want to participate using their money and weren't suppose to do something for me.

2. This is an independent stream of education dollars for our public school. I don't know that Idaho can really afford right now to turn any money for Public Education away right now.

3. Secondary services and revenue are benefiting from having out -of- state racers and fans attend the races. Be it restaurants and hotels or services needed at the track. Horse racing does create jobs. Additionally, Idaho residents aren't going to other states to spend their disposable income building the economy elsewhere.

4. Finally, and Misty will know far more about this than I do, apparently our equestrian services, beyond racing, will decrease without racing in Idaho. I'm guessing part of that is breeding and training horses.

As we have more and more retirees want to move to Idaho to retire many like horses for racing or personal use. In the Idaho Falls sub-forum we had a post different than any other that I've seen. A couple wants to retire in Idaho Falls and wanted to know what part of the area was best for horses. They were clear they wanted the best for their horse (s ) and they were willing to live further away in a house that probably wouldn't be worth as much as where the horses were. My hunch is either through breeding or racing, the horses were going to provide some income for that couple.

I had never really thought about how horses contribute to the economy in some areas of the state until this Senate Bill.

Thanks everyone for posting your various thoughts about this subject.....it is far from over. I think lawsuits are not far away.

MSR

Last edited by Mtn. States Resident; 02-15-2015 at 05:28 PM..
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Old 02-15-2015, 06:35 PM
 
Location: Wayward Pines,ID
1,843 posts, read 3,306,402 times
Reputation: 1401
It already has repercussions. The local tribe cancelled Julyamsh;
Racing machine disagreement leaves Julyamsh without a venue | North Idaho - KXLY.com

and this dude decided it was getting too hot;
"Idaho Horse Racing Commission Executive Director Frank Lamb abruptly retired after an Idaho Statesman report said he had been working as a consultant for a Wyoming simulcast and instant horse racing company."

CDA ex mayor is weighing in. Maybe she 'owes' something to the tribe?
CDA's mayor (and many others) send a letter opposing Greyhound Park machines | Bloglander | The Pacific Northwest Inlander | News, Politics, Music, Calendar, Events in Spokane, Coeur d'Alene and the Inland Northwest
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Old 02-15-2015, 07:26 PM
 
4,497 posts, read 6,149,250 times
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I really don't know if it will have any impact on equestrian services. I'm an English rider and really the only thing that we have in common with the horse racing world is "repurposing" the OTTTB's for hunters, jumpers and eventers. I'm assuming the western folks do the same with OTT Quarter Horses?

At least in northern Idaho, our vets, farriers etc aren't very dependent on the racing world. To be honest...I really had no idea there even was Idaho horse racing. It really is a whole different world from what I'm involved in.
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