Questions Regarding Where to Move, Building Ordinances and Other Stuff (Boise: mineral rights, sales)

[winrunner]

Hello,

I am a single 51yo male and I work from home. I had originally planned to move in May/June of this year to Wyoming but life got in the way and I have been forced to delay that move by 1 year. During the course of doing my due diligence, I found more and more people mentioning Idaho and decided to seriously consider it a destination. To say that narrowing down my desired cities was difficult would be an understatement. I was getting dizzy from my head being on a swivel every time I looked (and partially decided on) Driggs, Swan Valley, Salmon, Boise, Moscow, Wallace, Sandpoint and Bonners Ferry and back to Swan Valley. Just when I thought I had everything settled - along came another post with yet another lovely destination. Arghhh!

In all seriousness, not a bad problem to have.

So now in addition to my preferred locations (in Wyoming) of Buffalo, Sheridan, Cody, Story and Ranchester, I have added Boise, Moscow, Sandpoint and Bonners Ferry.

My plan NOW is to move in May/June 2016 and looking to purchase a home by November 2016 if I decide on Wyoming. If on the other hand I decide that Idaho is the place to be for me, I will most likely move 2-3 months sooner and the relocation would be done in 2-3 phases. I've pretty much settled on living in Boise for at least a year during Phase One. No need trying to sell me on how beautiful it is Doing nothing but experiencing Boise and rooting for the Broncos. The second phase entails moving on north and either purchasing a property or renting while I build (Phase Three).

I would like your help on deciding between Moscow, Sandpoint and Bonners Ferry. I sure wish I still had Salmon on the list, but I got scared away when I heard that the smoke from fires gets trapped due to the low altitude. Not good if my parents spend 6 months out of the year with me since my dad's asthmatic.

I'm planning a visit for this fall/winter and I'd like to narrow down my list. If I am still undecided, so be it, I will visit them all but I prefer to go to Boise and 1 other city.


My disclaimer

I've spent a lot of time on this forum reading through a ton of threads regarding living in Idaho and I still have a few questions that I am hoping you would be kind enough to answer. My apologies if they have been answered and I missed them. The questions revolve around the ordinances and limits of structures on the property and other misc stuff.


My Requirements

Rural property

I'm wondering what the minimum land requirements would be for 4-6 goats(for milk); 12-20 chickens(for eggs); ducks; rabbits; 2 horses(for company... and a little riding ); 2 dogs(to guard the goats); a greenhouse(>60'W x 14'H x 96'L)or two; a garage to house and work on multiple vehicles, atvs, etc; woodworking shop and a guesthouse.

I'm looking for something in the 30-40 acre range. Does this seem like it would be enough for all that I've mentioned above?

I'd like the property to be wooded. At this time, this is a deal breaker if it isn't.

Huge basement. I'm adding this in case there is some special ordinance I need to be aware of if I decide to build.

Reliable internet since I need this for work.

Prefer higher altitudes. According to CD Salmon sits at an elevation of 3950. If this is low enough to trap smoke, then I'll need to be higher. If fires are few and far between then this may not matter much.

Will be installing a solar power system for entire property.


My Likes

I'd also like the property to be bordered(?) on at least 2 sides by BLM land or a national park[?](almost a deal breaker).

I'd like to be within 60 minutes drive time from the nearest city. Within 40 minutes would be preferable but I'm trying not to be greedy (You can stop laughing now)


Water/Mineral Rights

Is there anything unique to Idaho regarding water or mineral rights that I should know about?
If I don't have water rights, can I get permission to dig a well?


Fencing the Property

I've noticed that a lot of the properties with substantial acreage are not fenced.
Is this optional? Or discouraged? A matter of cost?
Are the properties staked off to avoid problems with neighbors?


Misc

How strict are the building ordinances?
Where can I learn Russian? I've done searches and have come across a lot of outdated information. Would appreciate it if someone knows firsthand where I can take lessons with someone in a classroom setting. One on one is fine, I just want it to be face to face.
How is (or Is) trash collected at the properties that are way out there?
What types of structures that I may want to build do I need to run by the county? A barn? An indoor basketball court in a barn? The aforementioned greenhouse? An in-ground cistern? In-ground fuel tanks? An underground bunker in preparation for the zombie apocalypse?


Thank you very much and I apologize again if the questions have already been addressed elsewhere. Please feel free to suggest some other area that you feel meets my requirements and wants. I'd appreciate any assistance as I would hate to decide on Moscow only to find out late in the process that I wasted time because it didn't meet some of my more important needs.


Thank you again and Have An Amazing Sunday!
1343113433

[Cnynrat]

I am only going to address some of your questions where I think I can help, and just from the perspective of Kootanai/Bonner/Boundary counties in north Idaho, which is the area I am most familiar with.

Originally Posted by winrunner

Reliable internet since I need this for work.

The combination of rural property and north Idaho can present some challenges for good Internet service. There are a few good threads here about the subject. In general, once you get outside town the only option you are sure to have is satellite. It may not work for you if you need or use a VPN for your work. It can be disrupted by severe weather. Stories of poor customer service are plentiful. You may be able to run a T1 line to your home, but costs will be $3-400/month for a reliable 1.5 Mbps each way. The other possible options are microwave or cellular, but whether they are available to you is highly dependent on the location of the specific property you choose.

Originally Posted by winrunner

Prefer higher altitudes. According to CD Salmon sits at an elevation of 3950. If this is low enough to trap smoke, then I'll need to be higher. If fires are few and far between then this may not matter much.

Generally speaking north Idaho is 2000-2500 feet above sea level, at least in the areas where most homes are located. The surrounding mountains are higher obviously, but those areas tend to be government owned land, mostly National Forests in north Idaho.

Originally Posted by winrunner

Will be installing a solar power system for entire property.

That's fine, there are people off grid in north Idaho, but recognize the challenges brought on by short winter days, high latitudes and lots of cloudy weather in the winter.

Originally Posted by winrunner

I'd also like the property to be bordered(?) on at least 2 sides by BLM land or a national park[?](almost a deal breaker).

This is going to severely limit your choice of property, and may be very much at odds with your desire for good internet connectivity. Even a single boundary to government land would be a limitation. We ended up with one boundary to BLM land, so it can be found, but if we had set that as a requirement I think there would have only been one house to look at in all of Bonner and Boundary counties during the time we were in the market.

Originally Posted by winrunner

I'd like to be within 60 minutes drive time from the nearest city. Within 40 minutes would be preferable but I'm trying not to be greedy:

Not a problem in north Idaho, so long as towns like Priest River, Bonners Ferry and Sandpoint are large enough to meet your city needs.

Originally Posted by winrunner

Is there anything unique to Idaho regarding water or mineral rights that I should know about? If I don't have water rights, can I get permission to dig a well?

I'm not an expert in this area, but I don't think most properties in north Idaho are sold with mineral rights. OTOH, drilling a well for domestic use is generally not a problem. Permits are required, but generally administratively granted for that purpose.

Originally Posted by winrunner

I've noticed that a lot of the properties with substantial acreage are not fenced. Is this optional? Or discouraged? A matter of cost? Are the properties staked off to avoid problems with neighbors?

Putting up fencing will stop wildlife from coming across your property, which some people (most?) may find undesirable. For me there is no point in putting up a fence other than to keep deer out of my garden, keep livestock in a pasture, and maybe to keep my dogs from running around (although there are wireless electric fences that work pretty well for many dogs now). So I see no reason to spend the money to fence our entire property (we have 20 acres).

Originally Posted by winrunner

How strict are the building ordinances?

Depends on the county. All counties have their planning codes available on line - I'd suggest you spend some time doing that research once you narrow your choices down. In north Idaho, the further north you go the more rural it gets and the more lax the ordinances become. Take a look at the introduction to the Boundary County planning code for an interesting take on the subject - there is a quote there that says if your roof collapses under the snow load you will know better the next time.

Originally Posted by winrunner

How is (or Is) trash collected at the properties that are way out there?

In Bonner county if you are on a rural property outside the city you haul your own trash to one of several county operated facilities.

Originally Posted by winrunner

What types of structures that I may want to build do I need to run by the county? A barn? An indoor basketball court in a barn? The aforementioned greenhouse? An in-ground cistern? In-ground fuel tanks? An underground bunker in preparation for the zombie apocalypse?

Codes vary from county to county, so you need to do your research. In Bonner county there are exemptions for many ag and accessory type structures that fall under a certain size limit, and in many cases all you need from the county is approval to build in a particular location on your property. Many accessory structures under 200 square feet require no permit, and under 400 square feet only require a declaration that they are exempt from requiring a building location permit. Above that the county wants to know (and approve) where you plan to place the structure on the property.


Dave

[winrunner]

Thanks Dave.

Originally Posted by Cnynrat

The combination of rural property and north Idaho can present some challenges for good Internet service. There are a few good threads here about the subject. In general, once you get outside town the only option you are sure to have is satellite. It may not work for you if you need or use a VPN for your work. It can be disrupted by severe weather. Stories of poor customer service are plentiful. You may be able to run a T1 line to your home, but costs will be $3-400 for 1.5 Mbps. The other options are microwave or cellular, but whether they are options is highly dependent on the location of the specific property you choose.

I figured I'd have to get satellite the farther out I went - forgot about T1 and didn't even consider microwave . I'll have to figure out which will be the most reliable even if it means having a backup. While I don't need the service up 24/7, I has to be available when I need it.

Originally Posted by Cnynrat

Generally speaking north Idaho is 2000-2500 feet above sea level, at least in the areas where most homes are located. The surrounding mountains are higher obviously, but those areas tend to be government owned land, mostly National Forests in north Idaho.

I was afraid of that.

Originally Posted by Cnynrat

That's fine, there are people off grid in north Idaho, but recognize the challenges brought on by short winter days, high latitudes and lots of cloudy weather in the winter.

Thanks for the heads up.

Originally Posted by Cnynrat

This is going to severely limit your choice of property, and may be very much at odds with your desire for good internet connectivity. Even a single boundary to government land would be a limitation.

Well that sucks.

Originally Posted by Cnynrat

Not a problem in north Idaho, so long as towns like Bonners Ferry and Sandpoint are large enough to meet your city needs.

Good. More than big enough. I have no problem going out farther away every once in a while, I just don't want it to be the norm.

Originally Posted by Cnynrat

I'm not an expert in this area, but I don't think most properties in north Idaho are sold with mineral rights. OTOH, drilling a well for domestic use is generally not a problem. Permits are required, but generally administratively granted for that purpose.

That's cool. This is something that I came across while looking into Wyoming and I wanted to cover my bases here.

Originally Posted by Cnynrat

Putting up fencing will stop wildlife from coming across your property, which some people (most?) may find undesirable. For me there is no point in putting up a fence other than to keep deer out of my garden, keep livestock in a pasture, and maybe to keep my dogs from running around (although there are wireless electric fences that work pretty well for many dogs now). So I see no reason to spend the money to fence our entire property (we have 20 acres).

Outstanding. I have no intention of fencing my entire property it's just I'm originally from NYC and it amazes me that people can live in harmony without that delineation What I envision is a large portion of the property that will house the dogs and some of the animals in separate housing units within a fenced in area and the horses in a barn outside the fence line.

Originally Posted by Cnynrat

Depends on the county. All counties have their planning codes available on line - I'd suggest you spend some time doing that research once you narrow your choices down. In north Idaho, the further north you go the more rural it gets and the more lax the ordinances become. Take a look at the introduction to the Boundary County planning code for an interesting take on the subject - there is a quote there that says if your roof collapses under the snow load you will know better the next time.

Thanks. Bold is hilarious.

Originally Posted by Cnynrat

In Bonner county if you are on a rural property outside the city you haul your own trash to one of several county operated facilities.

I did not see this coming.

Thanks again Dave. You've confirmed some things that I suspected and enlightened me with others.14656

[banjomike]

20 to 40 acres are plenty if you want to grow your own hay for your goats and horses, but you will need a tractor, and a minimum of a plow, a hay cutter and a baler if you plan to grow hay.
More importantly, you will have to have a reliable source of irrigation water. That means you will either need to find a place that has water rights with a canal system, or you'll have to drill a well and need a sprinkler system for irrigation.

Canals let out their water on schedules; to irrigate, the farmer uses syphon tubes which go into the canal, loops over the top of the bank and trails out on the property. Flood irrigation is an all day job when your water comes down the local diversion ditch from the feeder canal. If you're gone on the day you have the water, the next guy down the line gets your turn, but the irrigation itself is pretty simple; all you have to do is shovel a little dirt around to make sure all the field gets proper water.

But if you take too much, there will be a fight with the someone else on your ditch. And you have to watch others, because they'll take your water if they can get away with it.

If you have to drill a well, you may not be able to use the water on demand either. It all depends on who owns the water rights to the property you buy. Some land is adjudicated, some is not. Land that is adjudicated as a first right, second right, and so on. Sprinkling can be done by several ways, from simple hand-carried linear aluminum pipes that click together, each with rain bird sprinkler heads mounted on the tops, to automatic linears, which can use gravity to move the pipes. Circular sprinkling systems use electricity to move around a well in a large circle.

Any of all is going to need to be considered, and all cost a lot of money. The alternatives are to buy the hay, which can run into $2,000 plus a ton, or it may be possible to pay a neighbor to grow your hay with his equipment.

The goats, rabbits and horses will all need the hay to eat all winter. Goats can eat slightly lower quality hay than horses and rabbits. All must also be fed some amount of oats and/or barley to thrive. Better quality hay makes the goat milk taste better. A typical winter here would require you to put up about 4 tons of hay for what you describe. You will also need grain for the chickens and to supplement the bigger critter's feed.

Hay can be purchased, but by no later than February, you would need to have enough hay on hand to last until mid-April at the minimum. If the winter hangs on later than that, you could watch all your big livestock starving, as the hay becomes all sold off and the grass and alfalfa needs time to come up and get started before the fields can be grazed.

Hobby farming is a ton of work year round. Varying livestock like you want will chain you down, as each type of critter has it's own demands. In this country, essentially 20 acres of a 40 acre place will be devoted to raising feed, and the other half to grazing. 11 of the 20 farm acres will need to be rested or rotated with another crop, depending on water availability. All the feed crops have to be plowed up and re-seeded on varying yearly schedules.

Any farm will have to be fenced to hold your livestock. Goat fencing costs much more than barbed wire, which is sufficient for horses. Rabbit hutches and chicken coops will need to be built, maintained and cleaned. Your milk goats will need to be bred yearly to produce milk, so you will need to find sales for the kids, and will have to nurse them yourself if you plan on selling any milk.

Any place out here demands winter shelter for all your livestock. Add the costs of wind sheds at a minimum to keep your goats and horses. In a snowy winter, doing the chores will take up half a day every day at the minimum.

Maybe I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. I hope so, because I've seen a bunch of intended hobby farms that turned into overgrown weed patches after a couple of years after the buyers realized they had gotten themselves into more than they anticipated. If your place becomes a weed patch, the county weed abatement crew will come out and kill the weeds, but they'll charge you for it.

If you haven't ever farmed before, 51 is a late age to start learning. As a single man, you will be very busy all year round. Farming can bite a beginner in the butt very hard, very fast.

If you scale back your plan to 3 acres max, and plan a big varied garden with possibly a berry patch and a few fruit trees, drop the goats and horses, you could probably take care of the place with a small tractor and a couple of implements, with no need to fence the entire place. Greenhouses are their own thing, and they require year-round attention, but at an acre or two, you would still have enough spare time to continue your present work from home.

In general, the more scenic a spot is, the worse the farm ground will be. There are many valid reasons why one sees old abandoned houses and barns in the prettiest places. Most of those folks learned the hard way that living on the edge of wilderness and forests doesn't make a good farmstead.

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but it seems you may be thinking of biting off more than you can chew.

If not, then I'm sure you will find a way to make what you truly want the most to happen. There are always many ways any determined person can find to make a dream come true, especially if the dream has a person's full commitment behind it.

[Sage of Sagle]

Some great information here. One correction.

Waste Management will rent you a dumpster, and then you can have them come pick it up. We did this for our place. So we have a 4 yard dumpster, and then we call them to come empty it as needed. Massive time saver for us, since with a very large family and some business activity, we produce a good amount of trash in a month (and that's on top of us having a big composting system here for that "variety" of trash).

[Cnynrat]

Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle

Some great information here. One correction.

Waste Management will rent you a dumpster, and then you can have them come pick it up. We did this for our place. So we have a 4 yard dumpster, and then we call them to come empty it as needed. Massive time saver for us, since with a very large family and some business activity, we produce a good amount of trash in a month (and that's on top of us having a big composting system here for that "variety" of trash).

I did not know that. Will they do that anywhere in Bonner county?

Dave

[winrunner]

Thanks banjomike for your reply.

Originally Posted by banjomike

Maybe I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. I hope so, because I've seen a bunch of intended hobby farms that turned into overgrown weed patches after a couple of years after the buyers realized they had gotten themselves into more than they anticipated.

You haven't told me much that I didn't already know or suspect but I have to admit I got a migraine before finishing the section on irrigation The complexity of the water rights is one of my biggest concerns in moving to Wyoming and a bit disheartening that I may face similar issues in Idaho. I always planned to purchase all the feed for the animals and was hoping that irrigation wouldn't be an issue. I also thought that if I received permission to drill a well, on demand use was a given. I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by banjomike

If you haven't ever farmed before, 51 is a late age to start learning. As a single man, you will be very busy all year round. Farming can bite a beginner in the butt very hard, very fast.

If you scale back your plan to 3 acres max, and plan a big varied garden with possibly a berry patch and a few fruit trees, drop the goats and horses, you could probably take care of the place with a small tractor and a couple of implements, with no need to fence the entire place. Greenhouses are their own thing, and they require year-round attention, but at an acre or two, you would still have enough spare time to continue your present work from home.

I'm single but I won't be alone for at least 6 months out of the year. My parents will be living with me during that time and with any luck, full time if they can pull themselves away from NYC. My dad's the one with farming experience and growing up we had fighting *****, chickens, rabbits and at one time a pair of pheasants in a three bedroom apartment in the Bronx. Mind you this was back in the early to mid 60s - apartments were huge and people minded their business

Originally Posted by banjomike

I don't mean to be a wet blanket, but it seems you may be thinking of biting off more than you can chew.

I appreciate you telling like it is. I don't want anyone blowing smoke. I need to make my decisions with the most complete and accurate information I can get.

Originally Posted by winrunner

My Requirements

Rural property

I'm wondering what the minimum land requirements would be for 4-6 goats(for milk); 12-20 chickens(for eggs); ducks; rabbits; 2 horses(for company... and a little riding ); 2 dogs(to guard the goats); a greenhouse(>60'W x 14'H x 96'L)or two; a garage to house and work on multiple vehicles, atvs, etc; woodworking shop and a guesthouse.

I should have made it clear and put most of this section under My Likes but I feared that the post would be more confusing if I split it up. The only deal breakers regarding the section are the greenhouse(s), workshops, garages, dogs and chickens. If my parents decide that they cannot live anywhere other than NYC, then I can do without the rest. They were more for my dad than for me. The property should still be rural but in the 5 acre range. If I can get them to come out with me this fall, great. If not, there's always Phase One
14930

[winrunner]

Originally Posted by Sage of Sagle

Some great information here. One correction.

Waste Management will rent you a dumpster, and then you can have them come pick it up. We did this for our place. So we have a 4 yard dumpster, and then we call them to come empty it as needed. Massive time saver for us, since with a very large family and some business activity, we produce a good amount of trash in a month (and that's on top of us having a big composting system here for that "variety" of trash).

Good to know.

Thank you Sage

14938

[Publius4]

What's with the number sequences at the end of your posts?

[Sage of Sagle]

Originally Posted by Cnynrat

I did not know that. Will they do that anywhere in Bonner county?

Dave

I would think so, unless you're 20 miles up a dirt road. But in that case, they'll just charge you more. The big truck can't make it up my driveway in winter so they send a smaller truck. It brings out an empty, and takes mine away. Costs more, but still worth it.