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Looking forward to retirement in North Idaho. I have a home/property in the Hoo Doo Valley and chose that area because I felt it was in the middle of nowhere but convenient to everything (10 mile to PR and 10 mi to Spirit Lake). Anyone familiar with the Vay/Edgemere area? I have questions on gardening/growing seasons, best most economical way to heat a home in the valley. Valley life vs living mountain side. Hoo Doo Creek fishing? Hoo Doo Lake kayaking/fishing? I'm moving from the Mid Atlantic area to PR in 2 years. What should I know/learn to prepare for NID living?
You will notice less humidity and moisture problems. You can build things out of painted wood (like siding and trim) and it will last many years here. In the mid-atlantic, the termites would destroy it in a year. We don't see much of that here. Metal will not rust away as fast here. On the other hand, if you want a nice yard, you would benefit from a sprinkler system.
Looking forward to the lower humidity that's for sure and yes we do have a sprinkler system already installed in Idaho. Central AC is also in place, which from what I'm seeing is much needed in NID this season. Good to hear termites are not much of an issue in ID as our home there is a log cabin. Here in the Mid Atlantic we do heat with hardwood mainly oak. It's going to be strange to be heating with pine in ID. Creosote buildup is such a concern we burn well seasoned hardwood and would never use pine.
I'd be interested in others opinions here, but the advice I've been given is to have the chimney cleaned every year.
Tossing a cup of rock salt into a fire will help cut down on the creosote, but it also releases chlorine gas. Gotta be careful.
For sure, you don't want a chimney fire. I've had two of them in my life, and ended up in a desperate fight to save the house in the second. It was about 17 miles from town, too, and though we called the fire department, it we had not torn out some of the ceilings and fought the fire from inside, the firemen said the ouse would be fully lost by the time they appeared.
It was around zero at the time, with a 30mph wind blowing outside. All the hoses and outside faucets were frozen. As a desperate last resort, I hooked a solidly frozen hose, plugged with ice, to the hot water heater, and that was what saved the house. I used the hose while by brother tore out the ceiling and the insulation to uncover the fire.
The first wasn't much better. That one was in early October, and I was able to keep the roof from going up by using an outside hose, but the wood stove got so hot its sides both warped and I had to replace it.
I think I would learn how to sweep chimneys very quickly if I was living out in the hoodoos. That's the best prevention of all, even if it is filthy and possibly dangerous work.
Tossing a cup of rock salt into a fire will help cut down on the creosote, but it also releases chlorine gas. Gotta be careful.
For sure, you don't want a chimney fire. I've had two of them in my life, and ended up in a desperate fight to save the house in the second. It was about 17 miles from town, too, and though we called the fire department, it we had not torn out some of the ceilings and fought the fire from inside, the firemen said the ouse would be fully lost by the time they appeared.
It was around zero at the time, with a 30mph wind blowing outside. All the hoses and outside faucets were frozen. As a desperate last resort, I hooked a solidly frozen hose, plugged with ice, to the hot water heater, and that was what saved the house. I used the hose while by brother tore out the ceiling and the insulation to uncover the fire.
The first wasn't much better. That one was in early October, and I was able to keep the roof from going up by using an outside hose, but the wood stove got so hot its sides both warped and I had to replace it.
I think I would learn how to sweep chimneys very quickly if I was living out in the hoodoos. That's the best prevention of all, even if it is filthy and possibly dangerous work.
Whoa! Are chimney fires common? What type of chimney do you have? What type of woodstove? I clean my chimney every spring, burned wood as my main source of heat for over 30 years, have a masonry chimney and never a fire. My NID cabin has a 2 story, insulated pipe chimney and Kuma stove. Most of the houses and cabins I looked at in NID had piped chimneys and not masonry. The combination of burning pine with an exposed pipe chimney sounds like I'll need to clean the chimney more than once a year. I guess I should also keep a water hose handy! Thanks for sharing your experiences and suggestions
My understanding is that how well your chimney is insulated is one factor that will influence creosote buildup. Creosote is deposited by condensing on the chimney walls, so if your chimney is well insulated it will be less of a problem. Another factor is burning a lot a low smoldering fires, as you might if you close down the air intakes on a wood stove. That leads to cooler combustion gases, which then have a higher chance of condensing on the chimney walls.
My understanding is that how well your chimney is insulated is one factor that will influence creosote buildup. Creosote is deposited by condensing on the chimney walls, so if your chimney is well insulated it will be less of a problem. Another factor is burning a lot a low smoldering fires, as you might if you close down the air intakes on a wood stove. That leads to cooler combustion gases, which then have a higher chance of condensing on the chimney walls.
Dave
Nope. its the amount of pitch in the wood. Hardwood makes the best firewood because it's both dense and not pitchy, but there aren't any big hardwood forests in Idaho. The softwood deciduous native trees here don't cause creosote problems, but they don't produce much heat either. Our choices for hot burning firewood are limited to pines, and every species is pitchy. Wet or dry, pine wood is full of pitch.
It's not the carbon soot that's dangerous, it's the pitch. Fed enough wet hardwood, the soot naturally catches the unburnt wood particles that go up the chimney, and they can cause a chimney fire. Fuel is fuel to any fire.
A low temp smoldering fire creates no more or less creosote, but it creates more creosote filled soot that collects in any chimney. The insulated chimneys are for external safety factors, not the factors of creosote buildup within the chimney pipe.
The more creosote buildup in any chimney, the more intense a fire will be. It's a simple matter of available fuel for the fire. Creosote is excellent fuel. The more of it in the chimney, the hotter the fire will become. A choked insulated chimney pipe can become so hot the steel of the inner layer can melt, and then the fire can REALLY spread. That's exactly what happened in the fire I had to fight so desperately.
Worse, a creosote fire is essentially an oil-based fire. Unless water completely drowns the fire, a splash of water will only cause it to spread. Creosote is the thing that makes a pine fire hotter than a softwood fire.
The only way to remove creosote is to knock it loose, scrape it loose, and then brush it away from the inside of any chimney. The chimney has to be cool when the work is done.
When the creosote warms, it becomes sticky and gummy, a lot like chewing gum, and then as it grows hot, it becomes increasingly viscous.
A fire can start at the gummy stage, then progress rapidly as the creosote becomes as thick as syrup, then motor oil, and then very thin motor oil. As it thins, it spreads to the carbon soot that contains no creosote like paper blotting up water color. It also starts to drip down into the fire, making the fire hotter, just like an oil furnace works.
The old use of salt creates a glaze of sorts that only partially contains the creosote. Adding lime could cause the fire to burn hotter, thus eliminating some of the creosote, but the only way to be safe is to clean the chimney once a year. Even once a year may not be enough if a wood fire is the only heat source.
Wood pellets produce both less soot and creosote, but pellets require a bin that allows adjustable feed, and they only work at their best when the pellets dribble into the fire. They work well with a wood stove, but not so well in an open fireplace. Each pellet burns a little cooler than raw wood, but they are compressed after creosote removal, so there isn't much difference in temps, but there is in the total amount of fuel needed to maintain a fire. It all depends on how much a space will retain the heat from the fire. Pellets are better at maintaining a constant temperature than logs.
But a chimney will still need to be cleaned, only less often.
These are some of the reasons why soft coal became the fuel of choice once it was available. Coal burns hotter than wood and produces fewer solids to clog the chimney. Coal is much more efficient fuel.
That's why coal furnaces took over for so long before natural gas lines became common.
bm, you should write a book. Collect all this great maintenance/survival/history/culture knowledge you have and put it in one place. Thanks for sharing!
bm, you should write a book. Collect all this great maintenance/survival/history/culture knowledge you have and put it in one place. Thanks for sharing!
In general I agree. Mike is a wonderful resource here, especially when it comes to talking about the history and culture of Idaho.
Unfortunately, on this subject he's a little off base.
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike
Nope. its the amount of pitch in the wood. Hardwood makes the best firewood because it's both dense and not pitchy, but there aren't any big hardwood forests in Idaho.
I agree, the type of wood burned is a factor in creosote production. Hardwoods produce less creosote, but as you say they are not readily available in Idaho. So, why bother talking about them? Do you expect people to order cords of oak or maple firewood from the northeast and have it shipped to Idaho? Of course not.
How about we talk about the factors that people who live in Idaho can control in order to manage the risk of a chimney fire:
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike
The insulated chimneys are for external safety factors, not the factors of creosote buildup within the chimney pipe.
This isn't correct. Creosote builds up on the inside of a chimney when condensates form on the walls of the chimney. Condensation is caused by the temperature difference between the surface (in this case the wall of the chimney) and the gas (the smoke). A well insulated chimney will allow the flue gases to warm the inside of the chimney and keep it warm, thereby reducing the tendency for condensation to happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike
A low temp smoldering fire creates no more or less creosote, but it creates more creosote filled soot that collects in any chimney. The insulated chimneys are for external safety factors, not the factors of creosote buildup within the chimney pipe.
Correct, a low temp fire does not create more creosote in the smoke. However, it does create lower temperature smoke. A hotter fire will produce hotter flue gases (i.e. smoke), which will rise through the chimney more rapidly. The less time the gases spend in the chimney the less time they have to for condensation. Creosote build up in the chimney is the result of condensation.
If we need a short lesson in physics we can explore the topic further. Instead, here is a reference from the Chimney Safety Institute that talks about the causes of creosote build up in chimneys. Note that they address the following factors:
Condensation
Restricted air supply
Unseasoned wood
Cooler than normal chimney temperatures
They actually don't say anything about the type of wood burned. Why? Because even good hardwoods can produce creosote buildup given the right conditions. Talk to my brother who had a chimney fire in New Jersey after feeding his fireplace an exclusive diet of prime northeastern hardwoods.
So, to summarize, what should Idaho residents do to minimize the risk of a chimney fire:
1. By all means, if you have access to a source of hardwood for firewood, use it.
2. Burn well seasoned wood. Between 15 and 20% moisture content is ideal.
3. Try to avoid restricting air intake to stoves and fireplace inserts, as this will result in a low temperature fire
4. Get that chimney cleaned at least once a year
Dave
Last edited by Cnynrat; 07-02-2015 at 10:10 PM..
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