CDA/Post Falls: Heard the Good, How 'bout the bad? (Coeur d'Alene: relocation, real estate)

[AverageAmerican]

I've done a search and have found many great things said about the Coeur d'Alene area. I did however find a post (post #8) in the "I am thinking about moving to Coeur d'Alene (Post Falls, Kootenai: estate, property taxes)" thread which was extremely negative. Given the number of postings I am wary of his/her motives.

That being said, I am contemplating a relocation to CDA/Post Falls with kids under 10 and was hoping to get a "top 10" list of the challenges/issues facing the area from past and/or present residents of the area.

Thanks for any insight.

[Sandpointian]

Here are the bad things.
1) Job market is "thin." There are a wide variety of jobs, just not that many. Many newbies fail to realise that the CDA metro area and even the Spokane-CDA metro area is actually quite small (for example, 1/15th the size of the Greater Bay Area).

2) Pay scale is lower. This is only a bad if folks do not adjust spending and lifestyle behavior. There is a silver lining (per perhaps gold?) here in that CDA does not have overbloated public finance and pension schemes. See SFGate Data Center - Data and Searchable Databases and Vallejo one of few cities to use Chapter 9 and High salaries drive L.A. deficit

3) There is a lack of high paying salaries. There are few jobs above $100K and very, very few above $200K. Why? The corporate footprint in the area is still tiny.

4) The development strategy has been skewed toward attractive high net worth individuals rather than high paying jobs. The result? A large increase in people who make or have made their $$ elsewhere. These folks in turn buy the best real estate and buy into new higher end developments. Only a small number of locals have been able to remain local and increase their income in any dramatic way. The rest must leave to make $$ and then return. The end result: a growing gap between haves and have nots, but not based on jobs (which I would argue is worse from the POV of the local as he/she is priced out without much recourse).

5) NID winters are dark. I love the gloom as I am a melancholy kind of guy and a writer. I also like outdoor sports regardles of weather. For those coming from Colorado and California, the gray can be hard to handle.

6) Shortish Fall and Spring. 1-2 weeks shorter than at lower latitudes.

7) (I will catch flak on this from someone who dislikes the siring of dirty laundry). There is a higher incidence of rape and the presence of rather high number of sexual predators than the population would suggest. Look at the local crime blotter and the Idaho sex offender database. Central Sex Offender Registry - Bureau of Criminal Identification - Idaho State Police
Interestingly enough, most come from out of state. I do not recall if crimes were committed elsewhere or in CDA. In any case, why NID has been a dumping ground is something that is more than a minor source of irriation. I would guess our love of privacy and freedom is the "culprit." Hopefully, with some about of gentrification and economic development, such numbers will fall.

8) There is the meth problem that afflicts many communities. Privacy, long winters, affordable lifestyles, and large families are major contributors.

9) (Another flak alert) Lack of schooling ambition among the youth. Graduation rates and low. The number of college degrees as a % of population is low. The number of graudate degrees as a % of population is low. There are two satellite university campuses and a junior college. We have no proper university. What degree programs we do have are woefully inqdequate for the 21st century marketplace.

Too many are complacent on investing in the youth...perhaps stung by memories of their previous community where tax monies went down a black hole...or perhaps because their kids are grown and they were attracted by the idea of living somewhere where they did not need to spend tax $$ on public schooling. These views, in my opinion are understandable, but a bit short-sighted. Public oversight is a solution to misappropriated funds. But the complete lack of funds means hoards of unskilled youths seeking minimum wage jobs. The correlation of such hoards with higher petty crime and eventually higher incidence of violent crime is quite robust in most statistical studies. In contrast, kids in the better Silicon Valley schools are too busy studying, competing in the sports or the arts or creating companies to engage in such self-destructive behavior and therefore sport incredibly low crime figures. But...the appeal of lower taxes is just that...appealing...very appealing... My two cents...I would like to invest more $$ in the youth of the community provided there is better accountability of schools. Without that accountability I would be very hesistant...

10) There is too much housing inventory in the market. Many would argue this is a good thing, as it will bring prices down. I would rather wish that the overbuilding never happened in the first place. It will take several years for strong growth to absorb the extra housing that was built in the pursuit of out of state "equity transplants" (stronger language has been used). This means expected appriciation will be modest to flat for the forseeable future, making renting attractive and making extreme due diligence on house purchases a must. In a year or two, all else equal, I think market normalcy will have returned. Again, many feel that the above is a good thing given the insanity of post-2000RE market.

But I will admit to being rather boring. I think it is always best for any community for the RE market to be calm with a slow trend upwards in prices. Extreme booms are always followed by extreme malaise and lots of instability that can be costly in human lives being wrecked. No we have not been decimated by the credit crisis, but neither have we been immune.

Finally, the massive inventory has led to rather uneven growth. A small number of neighborhoods capture most of the crime (again, looking at the blotter) and there is increasingly the understanding that there are neighborhoods that are not very attractive (yes, this is always the case anywhere, but the difference between the median neighborhood and low-end neighorhood is growing and increase the talk of the risk of ghettoization). One would hope that community redevelopment can ensure that the rising tide lifts all boats...it remains to be seen if the LCDC shares such a perspective...


Well, there it is...my top 10 of negatives. One opinion of many who live and work in NID. However, know that my list of positives would probably be twice as long. Also, note that a number of the items on this top ten list may very well disappear in the next couple of decades as the area matures in its new role in this globalized economy of ours (the area economy is in transition).

Also one departing comment. I am pulling no punches on the list above. To properly compare different locales, one must be equally objective and non-emotional. I think that all things considered, the "net" of CDA (the good net the bad) is considerable and makes a strong case for one to be very optimistic going forward.

Disclosure: I own a few investment properties in CDA and have no intention of selling for the next 20-30 years. We are committed to NID.

[Sage of Sagle]

Well put Sandpointian. Would rep you but gotta spread more around first...

While I love NID, and my list of positives would also be much longer than the negatives (we cops still retire up here in fairly large numbers) I think he hit the "low lights" with full candor.

[esselcue]

"8) There is the meth problem that afflicts many communities. Privacy, long winters, affordable lifestyles, and large families are major contributors."

This replyis not meant to be an arguement nor a criticism at all, but I am wondering how Privacy, long winters, Affordable lifestyles and especially Large familes are major contributors to the meth problems in NID? Meth is a scourge, pretty much everywhere...I would hesitate to post that as a negative to NID. It seems to me that NID has so many positives. But I have been wrong before...

[Sandpointian]

What I conjectured as contributing causes to the meth problem were neither exclusive nor definitive. I am sure there another 10 reasons to give, but these four seemed to stand out in the time I was typing.

Privacy: It is no secret that that there are a number of large meth labs in the area. Our remoteness and respect of privacy allow people to get on with their business without opportunity to nip things at the bud. Note: that does not mean I would advocating ending privacy for the purpose of addressing the meth problem. Not at all. But it does make it less transparent and harder to eradicate.

Long Winters: I think the modern teenager/young adult gets bored and is quite boring. In yesteryear, kids were all attached to small family farms or in large families. There were nonstop hardwork, chores and responsibilities; paper routes; allowances were a pittance and therefore disposable income meant two presents (not counting underwear and socks) a year (Christmas and your birthday). Winters meant time to get a lot of work done and lots of physical activity. Today, winter is six months of Jerry Springer and ESPN. The percentage of obese in higher latitudes is frighteningly high. Teenagers, spoiled beyond belief and detached from more primal survival mode, feel that they have nothing to do. The modern kid is simply not an outdoorsperson enough to turn capitalize on the snow. Moreover, the length of the winter and the dark it implies prompts more depression. Boredom and depression help provide methheads with a long queue of converts to their church.

Affordable lifestyles: They say, idle hand's is the Devil's handiwork. The analogue I am thinking of is something like the following: where life is no longer a fight for economic survival, therein lies the corruption of men's souls. Singles and young people can lead reasonable lives working a low wage retail job. By reasonable I mean rent an apartment and still have a decent amount of disposable monthly income with which to live (eat, have a used car, a small entertainment budget, etc.). I am not talking about a life that is desireable, but rather one in which economic survival is not at stake.

In such a setting, one can afford to be idle. The opportunity cost of doing nothing is low to zero. Thing of being in the South Pacific circa 1700. Fruit could be picked off the trees and fish easily gotten. Hours taken for leisure are affordable since the opportunity cost is low. Another example would be a town i which everyone worked for the government (DC pre-AOL boom). After you punched out, it was party time. You worked 27.5 hours and pretty much cold not be fired. When life is affordable, one can afford not to be intense about life.

I think this describes CDA. It is a good thing. A large % of families can still get by on one income--increasingly rare in the Western US. Singles/young people can work retail jobs and afford to be out of the house. There is so much outdoors that the outdoor life is insanely wonderful. Note: the debate in CDA about housing affordability for young people focuses on buying houses. I am simply talking about renting.

With economic survival not really an issue, there is freedom for both great use of time and great abuse of that time.

What is the alternative scenario? Cities which are exceedingly expensive; cities which require a professional job or high paying service job or long hours to survive; cities in which two incomes or high net worth are needed. Key is need not desire. The most expensive cities in the US have drug problems but of a completely different character and from different causes.

I lived in a number of places, none of which has a meth problem. Why not? Quite honestly, no one has time for such problems. Rents are way too high. Losing a job is far too expensive. Kids are cramming for SAT preps and extra math classes. That is not to say meth has not crept into more affluent circles. They have, although to a far lesser degree. But I would argue that meth has only minimal penentration into those communities which are both affluent, type A, expensive and fast paced.

I am not arguing for CDA is speed up, but rather that when one can afford slow down and stll survive, an edge is removed. The same edge that sucks the life out of us in the grind and in keeping up with the Joneses also keeps us away from those things that are so wantonly self-destructive. Instead, one sees coke (to keep up), X (to party on after a day on Wall Street), and exotics (b/c they are expensive).

Large families: Whoops! I meant to say "the lack of large families." The lonely only child of the modern age hooking up with other lonely kids.

Finally, I am not comparing the meth problem to those of other communities but rather as a problem in and of itself. Why? Depending on where you come from, meth is more of a problem, less of a problem or about the same as where you come from. Any debate would then be rather messy and unproductive. It was nonexistent in anywhere I have known and in six degrees of separation from me.

But...I would rather look at it on absolute rather than relative terms. What I would say is that, the problem of meth is in the news more than I would like and the industry is identified by many in NID as a problem. It very well maybe common among the youth of all America, but it still makes my top 10 list.

[AverageAmerican]

Thank you for your candor and insight.

I did a quick search on the Sex Offender website and was somewhat alarmed by the number of offenders in the area. Before I freak out though, I will check my area's list for a comparison. Employment is not a direct concern because any relocation would be the result of a job transfer. We plan to take a July vacation to the area to get a first hand look at the area, although I think a winter visit would have been a better "worst case scenario" look at the area.

As a quick follow-up question, are there any major pollution or environment issues facing the community?

[Sandpointian]

AA,
Just wanted to reiterate that this list was as ordered...the "bad" list. The good list is twice as long.

Here are some ways to address the top 10 bad list.

1) Job market is "thin." Inevitable given our lack of size. But what we have have needs to make up for that in terms of quality. Right now there are hoards of retail employees and retirees and few professionals in between. Would like to see the retail component shrunk into 1/3 of its present size and replaced with jobs that can pay 2-3 times more.

2) Pay scale is lower. Without much investment (public or private), the area invites the big box retailers to have a large presence in the area. This means low paying jobs and government complicity for such jobs. Also, since the school options are extremely limited, more technically schooled kids have to leave to make a career. The only thing that will change this is the import of companies selling high value-added products and looking for productive workers.

3) There is a lack of high paying salaries. Same for the above, but with one addition. Why not make NID a place to locate logistical centers? IT hubs? Hedge Funds? This the telecommuting era. There is no reason why those companies cannot locate here. With them come high paying salaries and a chance for our youth to grab amazing experiences locally. Note, I am not saying full-on huge companies, just the upper end brain trusts who need only be well connected.

4) The development strategy. The retiree-only development strategy is ultimately a flawed one. Healthy sustainable economies need productivity and value-added. Our current model is the one seen on Cape Cod: wealthy retirees and low end retail with very little in between. Unnatural. In addition to #3, how about a technology park for gamers? for finance? I am not a fan of the Jackson Hole or Sun Valley development model. I would rather that the money be made right here in NID.

5) NID winters are dark. Develop a reasonable indoor culture of shorts. I would like to see more gaming developers in the area (like for Xbox, Playstation, etc.). Maybe they can host tournaments. Great industry.

6) Shortish Fall and Spring. Global warming? Just kidding. SP has used the the short shoulders to host a number of festivals. Always a great idea...keeps the spirit warm.

7) Sexual predators: I think the sexual predator issue was a something that will go away (or at least mean revert) in the next couple decades. It seems clear that Idaho must have been a dumping ground for other states or at least a place where sex offenders felt comfortable. Managing a small state on this issue is very easy. Turn up the heat and increase the public awareness with an info campaign that roots them out into the open. Let the filth drift to some other state. At the same time, differentiate among the predators and the consneual sex between a 18 and 17 year old.

8) There is the meth problem. Replace meth with other highs and we have a long term solution.

9) Lack of schooling ambition among the youth. No one wants to be left behind. Show to the youth the advantages of high academic achievement and they will take interest...especially if it leads to more time and better equipment with which to fish, hunt, ski, etc.

10) Housing inventory: Four things will eliminate the issue. One, time. Two, price adjustments. Three, continued economic growth. Four, a major slow down in building. The analogy is keeping healthy salmon runs in the Pacific Northwest. If we allow unfettered fishing of salmon, then before too long there will be no more salmon...forever...If we prohibit fishing, then many families go hungry and are forced to move away from the land they helped develop. The solution for salmon and for housing/construction is the same: careful management and moderation. The last few years, the large builders had carte blanche, thus creating the mess we are now in. Retricted building and more infilling (esp in the downtown CDA area) is a necessary compromise. It would also put more $$ into the pockets local craftsmen rather into the pockets of large builders (and their shareholders. And it would help beautify the downtown. It the past couple of years, I have seen a number of infilling construction go on, each one unique and attractive.

In due time, inventories will get absorbed and hopefully without severe dislocation of workers wtih local ties.

So the ills that we have in CDA and in other parts of NID are really not without solution or amelioration. Just takes some vision and elbow grease...something I feel confident we have plenty of.

S

[AverageAmerican]

Sandpointian, (or others who may want to respond)

Thank you for your thoughtful responses. I have the good fortune of not having to worry about the employment issues (at least not directly). My relocation would be work related and is stable. Housing.. not a problem. Realtor dot com suggests I might be able to break even on selling here and buying there without a large increase in the mortgage.

My biggest concern is the sexual predator issue. I compared the number of regisered offenders between CDA/Post Falls and my city (comparable populations) and the CDA/Post Falls number was 10 times more. The numbers look scary, but I do not want to make a knee-jerk reaction, until I can look into the rating critera and what the numbers really mean. Maybe my city isn't good at identifying and arresting these types therefore the number is low. I believe it is best to look beyond the numbers (I think it was Mark Twain who said "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.") as they often do not portray reality.

Can you offer additional opinion as to why NID seems to attract these types? Is NID law enforcement or the court system lax on these types of offenses?

As a side question, if my spouse is not keen on routinely driving in snow (i.e. snow covered, unplowed roads) will I have a problem selling a relocation to CDA or Post Falls?

Thanks again

[heatherriviere]

I am so glad someone addressed the question of sex offenders. I too was shocked to see CdA peppered with so many inkspots, my native Minnesota doesn't have a FRACTION of such statistics, in fact, all along the north shore of Lake Superior I think there is only one person listed! I don't know however if that is due to a veritable difference in the number of sex offenders, to the Minnesota website perhaps not being updated regularly, to differences in criteria for listing offenders on the websites, for differences in the judicial systems with regards to condemning sex offenders, or what.

What do you do if you see that your neighbor is on there?? I'm not sure now if it's really that great of an idea to know who has done what, in the end...it's all making me rather paranoid...Although maybe it's better to be informed and to avoid such unsavory characters, when at all possible...

Does anyone have any information on what is done with such sex offenders in CdA, so that they don't repeat? (ie counseling/therapy, support groups, chemical castration?) Or are they only obliged to report to the sheriff every time they move or every so many months, nothing else?

Any statistics available to know what the repeat offense probabilities are, in general or with regards to Idaho or CdA?

Any info here would be appreciated.

[esselcue]

Sex offenders whose names show up on a "map" are the ones that law enforcement knows about. The law states a sex offender must contact his or her local law enforcement agency and report each and every time they move, with their new address and all other information, but many do not bother to do that. So the marks you see on a community map are the ones who have obeyed the law and reported their whereabouts.

Offenders seem to cluster in certain areas, generally low density areas where they can live in relative anonymity. I think the wisest way to deal with the ever-growing population of sex-offenders is to simply use common sense with your children and do all you can to keep them safe by being alert and informed. And, by the way, not all "sex offenders" are child molesters. Many have sex offender status due to adult sexual assaults, rapes, exibitionism, etc.