Best Idaho town for two gay and proud men (Boise: college, place to live)

[norcalmom101]

Originally Posted by jimg1126

Nobody cares about gays except the PROUD part. Nobody likes anyone who is PROUD of their sexuality.

Do I walk around town with my hand up my wife's crotch? No. That's just no acceptable behavior.

Why don't you put a lid on the PROUD part of your gayness and you'll be fine.

My guess is that "proud" is a euphemism for not being in the closet. A euphemism for not hiding being gay. And you cannot say that folks in Idaho hide their heterosexual pride. Their are families everywhere, never seen so many kids. And given the LDS population, and the Proclamation on the Family, I personally don't think any gay people have the monopoly on sexual orientation pride. It really gets me when heterosexuals fill in the blanks with vivid imagination about gays. The OP managed to ask their question without saying anything obscene.

[stingraynm]

Originally Posted by jimg1126

Nobody cares about gays except the PROUD part. Nobody likes anyone who is PROUD of their sexuality.

Do I walk around town with my hand up my wife's crotch? No. That's just no acceptable behavior.

Why don't you put a lid on the PROUD part of your gayness and you'll be fine.

In my first comment on this forum, I tried to lay that out in a less contentious fashion. Nobody wants sexuality shoved in their faces, if you will, so making it a primary portion of introduction, discussion, or behavior is definitely inappropriate... and rather shallow. While sexual orientation/preferences are a major facet of identity, a person should have other aspects of their identity to discuss and engage in with people in a public atmosphere and even casual acquaintances.

All the same, a person who is gay shouldn't have to hide that fact; rather, just spare everyone else the unprovoked vivid details. As with heterosexuals, odds are that problem really only arises when people are drunk or rowdy, so it shouldn't reflect on the entire population.

People should be able to introduce their partner as such. Also, public behavior should be equally scrutinized between heterosexuals and gays, in that what's acceptable for one should be acceptable for the other, and what's unacceptable for one should be unacceptable for the other. No exceptions.

I'd say that's pretty fair, and to those who would like to enact a bunch of gay-only PDA prohibitions, just remember that single people like me will be right behind you in that line, eagerly waiting to slap the same prohibitions across the board. PDAs in general make me feel awkward for several reasons, but I know how to (1) appreciate others' autonomous right to sensible affection and (2) ignore it.

I have felt and will feel so inspired to enjoy that liberty in a sensible fashion myself, and at those times I don't want to have to wonder who is watching and how their beliefs concerning PDAs may be more conservative than those of accepted social convention. (Irony intended, 'cause I'm conservative enough myself to follow those conventions, but that hasn't protected me from taking flak from tight-a##es who take "conservative" to mean something more domineering than just preserving social conventions. Look it up... creating standards more rigid than the norm is not conservatism, but something that belongs in the Victorian Era or Islamic theocracies. Since you can't travel back in time, guess where I suggest you move.)

As far as public policy, though, I'm mostly libertarian. I love liberties, so I advocate them on almost every count, and the one thing I'd say is worse than those who take away liberties from everyone are those who take liberties to which they'd just as soon feel entitled.

If you don't want sexuality thrown in your face, that's very practical and I'll second you on that... 110% (also, don't move to Las Vegas or San Francisco). However, if you don't even want to know if someone's gay or witness appropriate affection between gays, it's time to buck up and deal with it.

[norcalmom101]

Originally Posted by stingraynm

In my first comment on this forum, I tried to lay that out in a less contentious fashion. Nobody wants sexuality shoved in their faces, if you will, so making it a primary portion of introduction, discussion, or behavior is definitely inappropriate... and rather shallow. While sexual orientation/preferences are a major facet of identity, a person should have other aspects of their identity to discuss and engage in with people in a public atmosphere and even casual acquaintances.

All the same, a person who is gay shouldn't have to hide that fact; rather, just spare everyone else the unprovoked vivid details. As with heterosexuals, odds are that problem really only arises when people are drunk or rowdy, so it shouldn't reflect on the entire population.

People should be able to introduce their partner as such. Also, public behavior should be equally scrutinized between heterosexuals and gays, in that what's acceptable for one should be acceptable for the other, and what's unacceptable for one should be unacceptable for the other. No exceptions.

I'd say that's pretty fair, and to those who would like to enact a bunch of gay-only PDA prohibitions, just remember that single people like me will be right behind you in that line, eagerly waiting to slap the same prohibitions across the board. PDAs in general make me feel awkward for several reasons, but I know how to (1) appreciate others' autonomous right to sensible affection and (2) ignore it.

I have felt and will feel so inspired to enjoy that liberty in a sensible fashion myself, and at those times I don't want to have to wonder who is watching and how their beliefs concerning PDAs may be more conservative than those of accepted social convention. (Irony intended, 'cause I'm conservative enough myself to follow those conventions, but that hasn't protected me from taking flak from tight-a##es who take "conservative" to mean something more domineering than just preserving social conventions. Look it up... creating standards more rigid than the norm is not conservatism, but something that belongs in the Victorian Era or Islamic theocracies. Since you can't travel back in time, guess where I suggest you move.)

As far as public policy, though, I'm mostly libertarian. I love liberties, so I advocate them on almost every count, and the one thing I'd say is worse than those who take away liberties from everyone are those who take liberties to which they'd just as soon feel entitled.

If you don't want sexuality thrown in your face, that's very practical and I'll second you on that... 110% (also, don't move to Las Vegas or San Francisco). However, if you don't even want to know if someone's gay or witness appropriate affection between gays, it's time to buck up and deal with it.

Excellent post. Thank you.

[Sage of Sagle]

Yup. Great Post.

[Sandpointian]

Been off the board for a while, but I thought I would throw in my two cents on this.

Here is my theory. I think the "pride" and "proud" self-descriptions are a figment of our particular time and place in gay-straight relations and will die off within a generation or two. The repression of the G&L community has been filled with pretty brutal incidents and lots of hate. Once that repression and threat of violence is lifted, there is a natural process of healing that takes place by those who were the targets of oppression & hate. First there is joy at the liberation. Then there is anger for why there was repression in the first place. Then there is a search for a new identity for the community...something other than the one forged out of needs for survival and defined in part by the oppressor...After some time, a new equilibrium is reached and with it dies (or gets buried) the more extreme displays of identity.

This healing process applies to any group that has been labeled and oppressed from race to ethnicities whose countries were invaded and ruled over. My relatives are from a country invaded by both the Nazis and USSR. Their healing process has followed along similar lines and is still in progress...some anger that comes out from time to time as to their lost half century.

I think Black America is still early in this process. Lots of pent up anger. Many shifts in how they label themselves. Still working toward self-descriptions and the embrace of policies that are free from how they see themselves versus "the Man." Perhaps the recovery time is proportional to the time under oppression??

One of my best friends, who happens to be gay and who I have known all my cognitive life, has gone through a similar process in a search for identity in a "post-liberalised" world. Although he never went down the path of extreme PDA or extravagant displays of insecurity that one often sees, he has traveled through many "interesting" stages. Now he seems as happy and secure as ever, a good thing for all.

So if you buy my anecdotal theory, what to do? I am a believer that we are most powerful when we actually act according to our beliefs (rather than merely talk the talk). If the OP and significant other comes to town, I will welcome them and go about my business. If we all become friends, then great. Friends are good. I can always use more friends. If not, then so be it. We are not all meant to have common interests. God knows I have my own bizarre idiosyncrasies.

But I'll bet you a silver dollar, if OP & partner are on the flamboyant side, then after living SP for enough time to feel secure and trusting in neighbors & community, they will blend in with the rest of us. Their need to define themselves in terms of others' views and/or the need to shove something in the faces of those who wish them ill will no longer be there. At some point, they will be comfortable in doing those things that they enjoy. They will NO longer feel the need to do things society tells them to do NOR the things that the rules of oppressed communities suggest one should do for fear of being a traitor (or Uncle Tom, etc.).

Being a "compassionate" liberty-oriented guy (I used to call myself Libertarian, until I began to feel myself claustrophobic with group-think), I would do myself and my beliefs wrong if I did not allow folks to find themselves. God knows, it has taken me years.

When I walk through town and really try to observe folks, it is not very easy to pick out G&L members of our community on the basis of overt behavior. They are Sandpointians, just like us.

So to the OP & partner, if you come to SP, I hope that you can iterate toward the equilibrium you seek. And if not, I hope that time in our community will have taken you one step closer.

S
P.S. On the PDA, I guess it depends what is meant. I hug and kiss my kids whenever possible, hold hands with my wife, hug & kiss her (usually on the cheek but not always) when the moments are right. It will be a cold day in hell before I deny myself or my kids or my wife these simple pleasures, public or private.

[stingraynm]

Originally Posted by Sandpointian

Been off the board for a while, but I thought I would throw in my two cents on this.

Here is my theory. I think the "pride" and "proud" self-descriptions are a figment of our particular time and place in gay-straight relations and will die off within a generation or two. The repression of the G&L community has been filled with pretty brutal incidents and lots of hate. Once that repression and threat of violence is lifted, there is a natural process of healing that takes place by those who were the targets of oppression & hate. First there is joy at the liberation. Then there is anger for why there was repression in the first place. Then there is a search for a new identity for the community...something other than the one forged out of needs for survival and defined in part by the oppressor...After some time, a new equilibrium is reached and with it dies (or gets buried) the more extreme displays of identity.

This healing process applies to any group that has been labeled and oppressed from race to ethnicities whose countries were invaded and ruled over. My relatives are from a country invaded by both the Nazis and USSR. Their healing process has followed along similar lines and is still in progress...some anger that comes out from time to time as to their lost half century.

I think Black America is still early in this process. Lots of pent up anger. Many shifts in how they label themselves. Still working toward self-descriptions and the embrace of policies that are free from how they see themselves versus "the Man." Perhaps the recovery time is proportional to the time under oppression??

One of my best friends, who happens to be gay and who I have known all my cognitive life, has gone through a similar process in a search for identity in a "post-liberalised" world. Although he never went down the path of extreme PDA or extravagant displays of insecurity that one often sees, he has traveled through many "interesting" stages. Now he seems as happy and secure as ever, a good thing for all.

So if you buy my anecdotal theory, what to do? I am a believer that we are most powerful when we actually act according to our beliefs (rather than merely talk the talk). If the OP and significant other comes to town, I will welcome them and go about my business. If we all become friends, then great. Friends are good. I can always use more friends. If not, then so be it. We are not all meant to have common interests. God knows I have my own bizarre idiosyncrasies.

But I'll bet you a silver dollar, if OP & partner are on the flamboyant side, then after living SP for enough time to feel secure and trusting in neighbors & community, they will blend in with the rest of us. Their need to define themselves in terms of others' views and/or the need to shove something in the faces of those who wish them ill will no longer be there. At some point, they will be comfortable in doing those things that they enjoy. They will NO longer feel the need to do things society tells them to do NOR the things that the rules of oppressed communities suggest one should do for fear of being a traitor (or Uncle Tom, etc.).

Being a "compassionate" liberty-oriented guy (I used to call myself Libertarian, until I began to feel myself claustrophobic with group-think), I would do myself and my beliefs wrong if I did not allow folks to find themselves. God knows, it has taken me years.

When I walk through town and really try to observe folks, it is not very easy to pick out G&L members of our community on the basis of overt behavior. They are Sandpointians, just like us.

So to the OP & partner, if you come to SP, I hope that you can iterate toward the equilibrium you seek. And if not, I hope that time in our community will have taken you one step closer.

S
P.S. On the PDA, I guess it depends what is meant. I hug and kiss my kids whenever possible, hold hands with my wife, hug & kiss her (usually on the cheek but not always) when the moments are right. It will be a cold day in hell before I deny myself or my kids or my wife these simple pleasures, public or private.

That was a very insightful post. You added profound new depth to the topic. I'll have to print that out and mull it over for a while to let the whole idea seep into my insatiable repetoir of perspective. Truly a revolutionary take on what most people discard as mere indignation and rudeness.

Also on that complimentary note, I'm flattered that you appear to have read my post and offered some commentary to that. Actually, I am slowly beginning to use the libertarian ascription lightly myself. I appreciate well-funded infrastructure and qualified help when I need it. Also, certain elements in society definitely make it apparent that the invisible hand is about as trustworthy now as it was in the "Old West". From business moguls to street gangs, some people make the short leash of regulation necessary with their lack of personal/social responsibility.

Always glad to know there's other folks out there who are ready and willing to defend the harmless/responsible liberties front, though. Generalized/misdirected blame is a tough foe to fight alone, and the people who have endured the injustice and healing that you describe are no strangers to that assertion.

All in all, that was an awesome post and I look forward to seeing what else you add to these forums.

[stingraynm]

Also, my third paragraph in my prior comment was intended as mutual support for your PDA assertion. If someone takes issue with hugging and kissing, I don't know whether to say that would be despicable or just sad. In any case, if any movement like that took shape and actually made headway by any obnoxious stretch of the imagination, I'd be obliged to counter it with demands for an amendment that specifically preserves the right to hug and kiss whoever, whenever, and wherever we like... the XOXO Amendment, perhaps?? In the words of some recent commercial, "Yeah, it's that important!"

In free society, there is not and never should be a taboo against hugs and kisses. Anyone who pushes something like that would be "coming out" as a soulless, anti-humane monster.

[idahogie]

If the original poster is still reading: Please move to Idaho Falls. It's a great place to live. We do have a small gay community, but we need a lot more.

I'll even bribe you: I'll buy your first drink at every Drinking Liberally meeting that you attend in IF. How's that? Is any other town making an offer? I don't think so.

[stingraynm]

Originally Posted by idahogie

If the original poster is still reading: Please move to Idaho Falls. It's a great place to live. We do have a small gay community, but we need a lot more.

I'll even bribe you: I'll buy your first drink at every Drinking Liberally meeting that you attend in IF. How's that? Is any other town making an offer? I don't think so.

LOL! "Drinking Liberally"... sounds like my kinda club.

[idahogie]

There's an Albuquerque chapter!