Recent Visit / Possible Relocation to N.Idaho (Post Falls, Hayden: transplants, real estate)

[curlyjoe55]

Of course interesting conversation and opinions are welcome, but what we're really seeking is feedback or advice concerning relocation and any necessary reality-check considering our experiences during our recent trip to N.Idaho.

My wife and I have been thinking of getting out of here for a while now. The location of "here" doesn't really matter, I don't think. What matters is that while it's got pretty abundant employment opportunities for the two of us, it's not really a place to "live" (in any real real sense of the word) or to raise a family. Over the course of time, we have fallen somewhat victim to the concept of 'what we own actually owns us' and the typical 'keep up with everyone else' mentality which surrounds us. We've won some and lost some in real estate, it's pretty much a wash. We recognize that we are spoiled by conveniences and favorable weather, but that is not what defines us as people. We work extremely hard for every convenience we enjoy, but on the whole we feel that we aren't really living the life we want. There has to be a better way and we have been investigating N.Idaho as one possibility because we have family in the area. We literally just got back from spending a week in Spokane/Post Falls/CDA.

To us, "better" is a relative term. After spending some quality time in the area, we know we won't enjoy the same conveniences (or weather) that our current "big city" provides, but that doesn't mean we'll be lacking of any necessities either. Moving to N.Idaho will be much more than a change of scenery, for us it would be a complete change in lifestyle. If we elect to relocate, we hope that it will provide for our greatest, most important needs. Things that make us happy and will allow us to look back on a life that was worth living: family, friends, free-time, health, home, and hopefully some amount of financial security.

In our current place of residence, houses are stacked on each other like bricks, traffic is intolerable, smog is disgusting, the cost of living is astronomical, the quality of education is getting worse, uncontrolled immigration and poor policy creates numerous interrelated problems, and generally speaking local/state government is failing us too. Couple these points with the neglect of our national government and our current economic state, what are young families to do? We are struggling to understand how, with many years ahead of us, we are going to live a comfortable and yet sustainable lifestyle. How we are going to provide for our children, their educations, and our own retirement knowing full well that social security is extremely unlikely to provide a dollar-for-dollar return on our "investment" like it's supposed to. Local/State/National Government will never deliver the full extent of their promises, so in our eyes we must protect ourselves and provide for ourselves. Anything additional we'll consider a "bonus".

Clearly, some adjustment and/or modification to our current mindset and way of life will be necessary to achieve a life that is "successful" (aka, sustainable) over the long haul. Given all of the above, our two main concerns about relocation to N.Idaho are 1) employment 2) weather. I have quite a few thoughts on both and am interested in hearing everyone's opinions.

Employment in my field isn't readily available in the Spokane/CDA area. You could say my skills are valuable but somewhat specialized and therefore don't apply well to a small city. By small city, I mean that in terms of population even Spokane carries only a small fraction of the population of our current location. It seems to me that many locals in the CDA area work not just one trade, but several. Locals also tend to be frugal (grocery store employees will point out to you that you've missed a coupon in the paper) and have learned how to save, so that they can last out terms of unemployment if it becomes necessary. Consequently, it would probably be wise for me to do the same and have a "Plan B". I think this is something I'm going to have to investigate and figure out for myself if we want to relocate. My wife falls into the same category, though her area of education and professional expertise is different than mine.

The weather I see as the lesser of the two challenges. The weather is something you have to plan for and accept, love it or hate it, until its over. However, we might have some elderly extended family follow us to the area, and they may not have the same mentality and attitude towards the cold weather. For them, it could pose some real challenges and disappointments. They are retired and we want to keep them close, comfortable, safe, and happy in a place that will allow for their funds to last them as they live out the rest of their lives. The current spring/summer weather is awesome, it's the winter that concerns me. They already don't get around the best, so if anyone can offer us any insight here on our ability to provide them what they might need given the weather challenges, we'd certainly appreciate it.

Race is an interesting topic I've seen in many Idaho-related forum posts, mostly due to the former 'skin head' population up there. I married outside of my race, I'm white and my wife is not. Neither of us noticed any sideways glances while we were there. From what we've read and experienced, the overwhelming consensus of opinion seems to be "we want to keep the riff-raff out" and "don't mess up what we've got going on here" type mentality. Rarely is there tolerance, in any community, for troublemakers, freeloaders, etc. Inter-racial couples don't really fall into that category and accordingly, everyone we came across seemed friendly and helpful, or "tolerant" if that's what you want to call it. Overall, my feelings on racism are this: It's a waste of time. Simply put, I have high expectations of myself and therefore I have high expectations of others. Nothing is free in this world, you have to earn it. Do that and you will have the respect and admiration of others, no matter what color your skin is. Religion is another story, to me that's like "personal property". What's mine is mine. Since it's not yours, keep your opinions about it to yourself.

A somewhat related topic is that of 'class'. It's understandable why CDA local residents or 'natives' might be upset at the increasing number of 'transplants' coming from other states. It's similar in some ways to the immigration from Mexico taking place in the southern states, but in my eyes, different in one critical way. There are many hardworking, honest, contributing Mexican-Americans who deserve the utmost respect. We could replace Mexican-Americans with African-Americans, Asian-Americans, etc... whatever politically correct term works for you. Like I said previously, you're all good in my book. It's the ones who exploit our system, expect handouts, don't pay their own way, come across with an attitude like they are entitled to something for free, and take advantage of our humanitarian nature that rubs people the wrong way. If you come from a long line of hard working Mexican Americans who earn their keep and you're a dork, then you're a dork. That doesn't make me a racist, it makes me principled and hard working, and you a dork.

The Mexican influx in general is worsening the overall condition of the southern states areas. There is some good that comes with the bad, but the good doesn't overweigh the bad. The difference with transplats in Idaho, I think, is that those transplants by and large are bringing money, skills, and education into the area, which generally speaking improves the local economy and the ability for smaller cities like CDA to grow, prosper, and otherwise offer the youth in the area opportunities that might otherwise have not existed or been available to them. With the good comes the bad, this is a two edged sword of which we are aware. Some locals can no longer afford housing due to the price hikes of the last several years and that doesn't seem fair. But it's a lot like the weather... what can anyone do about it? This is the world we live in. I think if you are skilled at whatever it is that you do, you will be fine in most cases. I wish I had an answer for every story, but I don't think the answer is 'lock everyone out of Idaho except for the natives'. The more emphasis Idaho keeps on "keeping the riff-raff out", the more successful and profitable this inevitable growth will be for everyone over the long haul.

Finally, I'd like to say how impressed I am with the number of outdoor and family-related type activities exist in N.Idaho, for people who want to take advantage of them. Hiking, biking, camping, fishing, boating, hunting, skiing, snowmobiling, ATV/4WD trails. You name it, if you like the outdoors, this place is for you. Of course these things are possible no matter where you live, but N.Idaho is unique in its ability to provide so much of those types of opportunity within the confines of a very small amount of space.

Cheers everyone!

CurlyJoe55

[Sandpointian]

CJ55,

Originally Posted by curlyjoe55

The location of "here" doesn't really matter, I don't think.

It can matter as it is the basis of both your lifestyle thus far and expectations going forward.

Originally Posted by curlyjoe55

Given all of the above, our two main concerns about relocation to N.Idaho are 1) employment 2) weather. I have quite a few thoughts on both and am interested in hearing everyone's opinions.

Some very nice reflection. I hope you have considered Sandpoint?

Originally Posted by curlyjoe55

Employment in my field isn't readily available in the Spokane/CDA area. You could say my skills are valuable but somewhat specialized and therefore don't apply well to a small city. By small city, I mean that in terms of population even Spokane carries only a small fraction of the population of our current location. It seems to me that many locals in the CDA area work not just one trade, but several. Locals also tend to be frugal (grocery store employees will point out to you that you've missed a coupon in the paper) and have learned how to save, so that they can last out terms of unemployment if it becomes necessary. Consequently, it would probably be wise for me to do the same and have a "Plan B". I think this is something I'm going to have to investigate and figure out for myself if we want to relocate. My wife falls into the same category, though her area of education and professional expertise is different than mine.

The area is very plan "B." The internet offers you a chance to telecommute. Until some serious employers come into the area (value of which is really debatable), the median arrival should be prepared for rather modest local revenue.

Originally Posted by curlyjoe55

They already don't get around the best, so if anyone can offer us any insight here on our ability to provide them what they might need given the weather challenges, we'd certainly appreciate it.

The best advice I can give is to expect the worst. Say 8 solid months of gray. Record snows and slush. Big cold snap in Dec/January. If you think about it, living in such weather is simply a reorganization of priorities and funds.

Originally Posted by curlyjoe55

Race is an interesting topic I've seen in many Idaho-related forum posts, mostly due to the former 'skin head' population up there. I married outside of my race, I'm white and my wife is not. Neither of us noticed any sideways glances while we were there. From what we've read and experienced, the overwhelming consensus of opinion seems to be "we want to keep the riff-raff out" and "don't mess up what we've got going on here" type mentality. Rarely is there tolerance, in any community, for troublemakers, freeloaders, etc. Inter-racial couples don't really fall into that category and accordingly, everyone we came across seemed friendly and helpful, or "tolerant" if that's what you want to call it. Overall, my feelings on racism are this: It's a waste of time. Simply put, I have high expectations of myself and therefore I have high expectations of others. Nothing is free in this world, you have to earn it. Do that and you will have the respect and admiration of others, no matter what color your skin is. Religion is another story, to me that's like "personal property". What's mine is mine. Since it's not yours, keep your opinions about it to yourself.

If you are from CA, I would say that the "tolerance" displayed publicly there is very often manufactured and disingenuous. Political correctness and terrible public policies that have made so many so angry and bitter, under the skin. Sad, really, as many are good people tired of accommodation. There are a lot of people on this board who are so fed up. I am empathize, but I try to "gently remind" that the conditions of their angst are virtually nonexistent in NID, so best to take a deep breath and come with your "A" game face and attitude.

As for race. I think the there is a small contingent of ignorant and self-loathing characters who literally have nothing else going for them. They may throw a glance askance from time to time. A few others bring their baggage, never pausing to consider that their arrival makes them the immigrant. Heck, we can all use more downtime and time to become better people & neighbors. SP has done this for me. Otherwise, people are really far more concerned with intrusiveness on privacy, of big government, and showy bling than with race per se. At least the good people I know...I don;t put much thought into the losers. But.. you had best not expect perfection...for then no town will do anything but disappoint.

Religious tolerance is something I don't even think about....a good thing. But if you build some wacked-out, funky in-your-face church, don;t expect much support!

Originally Posted by curlyjoe55

A somewhat related topic is that of 'class'. It's understandable why CDA local residents or 'natives' might be upset at the increasing number of 'transplants' coming from other states... It's the ones who exploit our system, expect handouts, don't pay their own way, come across with an attitude like they are entitled to something for free, and take advantage of our humanitarian nature that rubs people the wrong way...The difference with transplats in Idaho, I think, is that those transplants by and large are bringing money, skills, and education into the area, which generally speaking improves the local economy and the ability for smaller cities like CDA to grow, prosper, and otherwise offer the youth in the area opportunities that might otherwise have not existed or been available to them. With the good comes the bad, this is a two edged sword of which we are aware. Some locals can no longer afford housing due to the price hikes of the last several years and that doesn't seem fair. But it's a lot like the weather... what can anyone do about it? This is the world we live in.

* people's acceptance of transplants is inversely related to numbers and proportional to quality of people, similarity and time. The past decade has been tough on many areas. Too much movement, more extreme types moving (from bling to migrant workers), less of the type residents are used to do and much too fast.

* If handouts are exploited, then end the handouts. Simple. I like SP in that government social services are not so extensive, but people-to-people services are immensely valuable. American is losing this feature of the culture as we have moved into cities and suburbs with great mobility. CDA is having growing pains as it transitions into a more anonymous and mobile model of development. At this point, it has no choice but to add in more features of a bigger city, like a bigger police force, as crime levels have risen 50% in the past 5 years.

* Although I hear you, aside from the true leeches, criminals and freeloaders, everyone else will argue that they are in fact adding value. So the true test is often on a system wide basis. I am not one to blame anyone for seeking to provide for their children provided they are not ruining others to do so. However, at the system level, laws and regulations are sometimes set up in such a way than incentivizes anti-neighborly behavior. Those things need to be changed by an informed populace who cares about the community they live in and is willingly to make sure that government is there for the greater good rather than to enrich those who already have the power and influence. On these matters SP does a decent job, but can always do better.

CDA needs to do a lot better. In fact, people may flame me for it, but I think it must gentrify more aggressively than it has. I do believe LCDC is on the right track. Both Hayden and CDA must differentiate itself from what will eventually be Spokane-CDA. It can either be an island of despair or the crown jewel. I think CDA needs to push to be a great city. It cannot proceed with laissez faire attitudes. Do that and I assure you the city will become a mess. I would like to see more $$ pumped into East Sherman and to do a better job at infilling.

* Economic growth is what it is. I would suppose the best strategic plans are those that win 2/3 share in the vote. Expecting unanimity is a bit much. Towns need to generate revenue to provide social services. SP is having trouble doing so, whereas the LCDC is trying very aggressively to remold the city. As a diplomat friend of mine once told me, one should always seek to keep one's options open. This means avoiding trying to hiut the home run (like CDA did by basing so much of its economy on real estate and retail, rather than bring in a few big fish). I sure hope SP get a couple of big fish...but not much more than that...Smart growth is what every city needs, although that formula varies from place to place...

[curlyjoe55]

Sad, really, as many are good people tired of accommodation. There are a lot of people on this board who are so fed up. I am empathize, but I try to "gently remind" that the conditions of their angst are virtually nonexistent in NID, so best to take a deep breath and come with your "A" game face and attitude.

Well stated! "good people tired of accommodation". Definitely would put our past behind us. As for the race/religion thing, not typically something I typically spend a lot of time thinking about. There will always be somone who disapproves, good for them. And no, I wouldn't be looking at building some whacked-out funky in-your-face church, LOL.

* people's acceptance of transplants is inversely related to numbers and proportional to quality of people, similarity and time. The past decade has been tough on many areas. Too much movement, more extreme types moving (from bling to migrant workers), less of the type residents are used to do and much too fast.

Makes perfect sense to me.

* Although I hear you, aside from the true leeches, criminals and freeloaders, everyone else will argue that they are in fact adding value. So the true test is often on a system wide basis. I am not one to blame anyone for seeking to provide for their children provided they are not ruining others to do so. However, at the system level, laws and regulations are sometimes set up in such a way than incentivizes anti-neighborly behavior. Those things need to be changed by an informed populace who cares about the community they live in and is willingly to make sure that government is there for the greater good rather than to enrich those who already have the power and influence. On these matters SP does a decent job, but can always do better.

Nor am I (one to blame others for trying to better their situation). And agreed, isn't that the typical M.O. of government these days (to enrich those who already have the power and influence)? Don't get me started.

CDA needs to do a lot better. In fact, people may flame me for it, but I think it must gentrify more aggressively than it has. I do believe LCDC is on the right track. Both Hayden and CDA must differentiate itself from what will eventually be Spokane-CDA. It can either be an island of despair or the crown jewel. I think CDA needs to push to be a great city. It cannot proceed with laissez faire attitudes. Do that and I assure you the city will become a mess. I would like to see more $$ pumped into East Sherman and to do a better job at infilling.

Laissez faire attitudes are no way to grow a healthy community, raise well-balanced children, or do many other important things in life. An intentional, hands-on approach with direct involvement from community/caretakers is critical to long-term success.

Thanks for the comments. What is the population of SP now? What would you consider a "big fish" and how will CDA/SP or many other areas attract these types of employers? Cheap land / space / and power is one thing, but many big business require specific talent which may or may not be available in those areas.

Cheers,

CurlyJoe55