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Old 06-12-2010, 05:20 PM
 
358 posts, read 186,630 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by puki View Post
Iceman, you are still wrong about state and federal welfare.

The income of illegal immigrants in the home must be claimed, but they are not counted for the purpose of receiving the benefits. While we know that there is welfare fraud (and I have never denied this, but of course you didn't see that), it is up to the states and federal government to follow up on cases of suspected fraud.

Lol... so they claim income on false SSN's? I think not. Fraud is rampant with ITINS and welfare benefits for illegal immigrants children, I already posted the IRS statement on it.

The benefits go to the people in the house with a valid SSN - they are the only eligible recipients. That, and income is how benefits are calculated. If the parents abuse the benefits that have been given to their children it is a very sad thing.

Sooo... the parents do not benefit from the $400 a month food stamps? how about the $500 a month cash benefits? (these are "for the children") all of those benefits including housing directly benefit the family unit... you just don't get that. The parents do not starve and go homeless while the American born children live in an apartment and eat three square meals a day.

Are you aware how long a waiting list for section 8 is? Literally years long in most areas.

Yes it is, and do you know the loopholes? the county will give "homeless" families vouchers to stay at hotels, or set them up in shelters. This expedites the section 8 housing procedure to only a few months.

Again, US citizen children born to illegal parents do not really "anchor" anything.

They (once again) bring forth the argument of "breaking up families", just like that sad news story of the lady selling bootleg phonecards out of her house recently, she was hooked up and faces deportation- with a few American kids. Booo hooo hooo! we can't deport her! she only commited several minor offenses!!!

I understand you do not want to waste time anymore. Playing Sociology 101 with questionable or very limited statistics can be very exhausting, especially when you can only name two of your sources.

Lol... I have give you a lot more than you provided.. OH WAIT! you gave me a 90 page article to sift through about secure communities!! the whole purpose is to catch only the worst of the worst criminals... WOW!

I can go based on Census statistics, ICE/USCIS statistics (here is a briefing on a recent ICE meeting http://www.ice.gov/doclib/foia/secur...sentations.pdf and your favorite, numbers!, are discussed!), and state demographic material, and the numbers you are quoting are largely inflated. I have never denied that there are illegal immigrants here who are in jail, violent, not helpful to overall society, etc. In fact, I have explicitly said things like that. Your numbers also appear to be based in statistics from the early 2000s and clearly, the immigration process has dramatically changed since then.

ZZzzz... Really? old data? sorry, the majority is current- there are a few that are older, but it was applicable for the point I was making. Where are your numbers to refute what I'm saying?? oh yeah.. they do not exist.. maybe next time...


I have also said that the majority of lawmakers, who allowed my husband -- who so heavily and single-handedly burdened US society -- to become a legal permanent resident, do NOT support amnesty. This is extremely clear and has been consistent over the years.

Lol.. if what you say is true, then your husband is one of the few not burdening American society. The numbers speak for themselves- over 10 billion in California alone!! Where are your numbers?

Last thing, how do you know that skilled IT Asian worker next to you isn't burdening US society? Because he speaks better English than the guy from Honduras who cleans your office bathrooms at night? Is it because Asian guy came on a visa?

No, how about because he is educated and has a skill set that's in demand?? Why do you insist the ignorant, uneducated masses of the world deserve to be here???? Wow... this truly is a waste of time.
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Old 06-12-2010, 07:42 PM
 
27 posts, read 12,461 times
Reputation: 13
You didn't read my welfare comment very well (again). I said a bit about welfare fraud. You can go find that if you are interested.

Also, anyone working in a welfare office knows how to recognize an ITIN, so it is impossible to commit fraud with one. ITINs start with 8 or 9 and SSNs do not.

You want me to look up all your crazy statistics, you can skim a 90 page article. You should be good at skimming with all your sociology 101 study experience anyway. ICE has some great initiatives. Getting out "the worst of the worst" sounds pretty good to me.


About Asian guy who entered on a visa: simply because he is educated and skilled does not mean he can't A) over stay a visa and become an illegal immigrant, or B) commit crimes in the US.

You keep insisting I share statistics with you, but I don't understand exact what type of statistics you want? I haven't exactly stated anything that would require statistical support. I have stated things that need federal law support, which I have provided when necessary.

I have also sent you to the most reliable place for statistics which would be DHS and ICE which regularly post statistics about illegal immigrants, though they do not necessarily differentiate race and nationality, which is what I think you are looking for. I'm sure that if you really want to continue your witch hunt, you can find some great information because you have excellent and broad taste in statistical and quantitative sociology research.

Last edited by puki; 06-12-2010 at 07:57 PM..
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Old 06-12-2010, 09:29 PM
 
358 posts, read 186,630 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by puki View Post
you didn't read my welfare comment very well (again). I said a bit about welfare fraud. You can go find that if you are interested.

wooow... Really? I get it, you are saying welfare fraud exist, and i believe that. I am simply saying welfare benefits the entire family unit, not just the anchor babies how hard is that to understand??

also, anyone working in a welfare office knows how to recognize an itin, so it is impossible to commit fraud with one. Itins start with 8 or 9 and ssns do not.

when did i ever say illegal immigrants themselves commit welfare fraud with an itin???

you want me to look up all your crazy statistics, you can skim a 90 page article. You should be good at skimming with all your sociology 101 study experience anyway. Ice has some great initiatives. Getting out "the worst of the worst" sounds pretty good to me.

lol.. You only showed me a 90 page article on taking out the "worst of the worst", i was giving you links till you tried to discredit them, now i will not waste my time. I instructed you to google them if you really care.

about asian guy who entered on a visa: Simply because he is educated and skilled does not mean he can't a) over stay a visa and become an illegal immigrant, or b) commit crimes in the us.

no, but his chances of being a productive member of society are a lot higher than your illegal immigrant dishwasher. That is simple common sense.


you keep insisting i share statistics with you, but i don't understand exact what type of statistics you want? I haven't exactly stated anything that would require statistical support. I have stated things that need federal law support, which i have provided when necessary.

lol.. I show you the problems associated with illegal immigration, and you give me "feelings", i simply ask for you to share with us on city data how a large percentage of illegal immigrants are like your illegal immigrant husband.. Is that so much to ask? Can you please prove me wrong on the statistics i have shown you? If not.. Well obviously i am wasting my time...

i have also sent you to the most reliable place for statistics which would be dhs and ice which regularly post statistics about illegal immigrants, though they do not necessarily differentiate race and nationality, which is what i think you are looking for. I'm sure that if you really want to continue your witch hunt, you can find some great information because you have excellent and broad taste in statistical and quantitative sociology research.

yes i do, thank you. Unlike you i try to be objective on the entire issue, and come to a reasonable, logical conclusion based on something called fact. I refuse to spend 45 minutes reading through 90 pages, you post excerpts to support your stance and we will talk like rational, intelligent people. Till then.. Well.. What can i say? Witch hunt? I have proven illegal immigrants are a net drain on society, and they (after four generations) will not thrive like we wish to believe... What have you shown me?? Nothing but feelings

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Old 06-12-2010, 10:00 PM
 
27 posts, read 12,461 times
Reputation: 13
Asking me to provide you with statistics based on the character of every single illegal immigrant to ever enter the US will be impossible to find. Also finding statistics based on the 11.6 million illegal immigrants that are currently here (roughly only 1.5 illegal immigrant children) and a survey of every single one of their character will not be possible.

I told you to look at ICE and DHS statistics and demographics because it is publicly available, but you have not done it. That would be the closest you can get to character based statistics since it contains crime statistics.

If you have not bothered to look at those statistics (which is where I got my numbers in the above paragraphs) it is not my problem. Those two sources are going to be the most accurate numbers you can get, not your random research poll or your outdated university sociology project. If you would like to take comfort in your two outdated studies, it is fine by me. I told you where to go for current truth, you don't want to do it.

If you want qualitative research, which might get you closer to what you are looking for, you need access to an academic data base which I don't currently have. I'm guessing you don't either considering your "research" is based on a single research poll and a single university based quantitative study done over 10 years ago. Based on those two studies, sure, your "data" fits your hypothesis. Beyond that, you are the person who lacks the ability at things objectively, not me. Current numbers are right in your face, but you won't look at them. I can't figure it out.

Besides, you keep ignoring the fact that I have validated the welfare fraud and criminally violent illegal immigrants being an issue. Again, that is not my problem you refuse to recognize this. I do understand it makes things more frustrating for you, because unlike you, I am being reasonable and relevant.

By the way, that illegal dishwasher is no longer illegal. I have stated that numerous times. He is legal permanent resident (aka green card holder to you) eligible to naturalize next year. He doesn't need your forgiveness because the federal government has already done that. This is not to say that your forgiveness is equivalent to the power the government has, but the fact that you continue to ignore shows me that you are not here to be reasoned with, but rather to make yourself look better.

I won't hurt your sensitive ego anymore. Go take solace in your Pew research poll and outdated sociology study. ICE and DHS must contain too much current and relevant truth for you.

mohawkx, you got it!

Last edited by puki; 06-12-2010 at 10:10 PM..
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Old 06-12-2010, 10:32 PM
 
364 posts, read 47,470 times
Reputation: 79
close our border with mexico
no ammesty
boot out all anchior babys
who aint adults
i dont suport ilegal imigration
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Old 06-13-2010, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Mesquite, TX
37 posts, read 26,555 times
Reputation: 35
I'm really not seeing what there is to debate. ILLEGAL is illegal. If you're not supposed to be here, from ANY country, get deported and go home. Where is the issue?
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Old 06-13-2010, 09:40 AM
 
1,955 posts, read 777,805 times
Reputation: 1115
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfromphilly1 View Post
I'm really not seeing what there is to debate. ILLEGAL is illegal. If you're not supposed to be here, from ANY country, get deported and go home. Where is the issue?

It should be obvious.
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Old 06-13-2010, 12:01 PM
 
358 posts, read 186,630 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by puki View Post
Asking me to provide you with statistics based on the character of every single illegal immigrant to ever enter the US will be impossible to find. Also finding statistics based on the 11.6 million illegal immigrants that are currently here (roughly only 1.5 illegal immigrant children) and a survey of every single one of their character will not be possible.

I am not asking you to survey every illegal immigrant in America. I was simply asking you to show me how "If you go back to my first post, I recognized that there are a number of people here illegally that should not be, but I suppose people like you only read what you want to read." What was your first post?? "One last note, I am not saying that all illegal immigrants that are here are good people because there are some that are plain out bad. HOWEVER, there are a number of people here that are responsible, pay taxes with an ITIN, stay out of trouble with the law, respect others, etc. It is just too bad that all the extremists see is brown=bad and they must be annihilated." Because you say there are "a number" of people here illegally that should not be, then the others should?? Because overall they are good, productive members of society??


I told you to look at ICE and DHS statistics and demographics because it is publicly available, but you have not done it. That would be the closest you can get to character based statistics since it contains crime statistics.

http://www.ice.gov/doclib/foia/secur...sentations.pdf I reviewed your site, and took some notes on the figures:- 672,436 fingerprints submitted through interoperability
- 1,101 Level 1 offenders removed
- Feb. 2005- June 2009 13,800 gang members/ associates arrested
- Level 1 offenders are prioritized, level 2 and 3 offenders will come in time.
- MS-13 gang has a membership of 8-10k in the United States and is a El Salvador based gang.
- 18th street gang: 30,000-50,000 members in America, 80% illegal aliens from Mexico/Central America
- Top 5 nationalities of gang members arrested: Mexican- 7,283. El Salvadorian- 1,615. Honduran- 550. Guatemalan- 393. Jamaican- 66.
- Top 5 gangs (arrested members) SUR-13, MS-13, 18th Street, Latin Kings, Vatos Locos.
- Focusing on the most dangerous criminal aliens: Threats to national security, homocide, kidnapping, sexual offenses, robbery, assault.
- 9% of all IDENT matches hve resulted in the identification of an alien charged with or convicted of a Lvl 1 offense since 10/27/2008
-85% of all IDENT matches have resulted in the identification of an alien charged with or convicted of a level 2 or level 3 offense since 10/27/2008
- 6% of all IDENT matches have resulted in U.S> citizen identification since 10/27/2008.
What does all this show? South American gangs made the top 5? the fingerprints ICE has in the database hits a lot of criminal aliens? (they only have 1/20th of all illegal immigrants fingerprints.. if you believe the government 10 million figure). These stats only focus on all the criminals from third world countries coming to America.. not sure how this is helping your case.


If you have not bothered to look at those statistics (which is where I got my numbers in the above paragraphs) it is not my problem. Those two sources are going to be the most accurate numbers you can get, not your random research poll or your outdated university sociology project. If you would like to take comfort in your two outdated studies, it is fine by me. I told you where to go for current truth, you don't want to do it.

First off, that "outdated sociology study"- The book was published in 2008, and is a longitudinal analyses that follow people over time. These studies are very expensive, and this particular one is very unique in the fact that there is none like it. For you to dismiss the findings of this research from a respected university.. well you will always be in denial. I am just asking you to show me numbers on the cost of illegal immigration, show me why they should stay.

If you want qualitative research, which might get you closer to what you are looking for, you need access to an academic data base which I don't currently have. I'm guessing you don't either considering your "research" is based on a single research poll and a single university based quantitative study done over 10 years ago. Based on those two studies, sure, your "data" fits your hypothesis. Beyond that, you are the person who lacks the ability at things objectively, not me. Current numbers are right in your face, but you won't look at them. I can't figure it out.

Where are all these numbers? 11 million illegal immigrants? ICE nabbing up illegal immigrant gang members? where are all these numbers you keep talking about? post excerpts and links, I will be more than happy to debate you on this issue..

Besides, you keep ignoring the fact that I have validated the welfare fraud and criminally violent illegal immigrants being an issue. Again, that is not my problem you refuse to recognize this. I do understand it makes things more frustrating for you, because unlike you, I am being reasonable and relevant.

I keep explaining to you it's not welfare fraud... wow. I am saying American born children with illegal immigrant parents are a drain on our system, the entire family unit benefits from the services given to the children. Fraud is also rampant but neither of us deny that point, except you refuse to admit illegal immigrants are able to benefit from welfare through their children.


By the way, that illegal dishwasher is no longer illegal. I have stated that numerous times. He is legal permanent resident (aka green card holder to you) eligible to naturalize next year. He doesn't need your forgiveness because the federal government has already done that. This is not to say that your forgiveness is equivalent to the power the government has, but the fact that you continue to ignore shows me that you are not here to be reasoned with, but rather to make yourself look better.

When did I say your husband needed my forgiveness? wow.. he is able to get citizenship after coming here illegally by marrying you.. good for him! you never did answer my question about his Guatemalan family, he still married to her as well?

I won't hurt your sensitive ego anymore. Go take solace in your Pew research poll and outdated sociology study. ICE and DHS must contain too much current and relevant truth for you.

Yes, all that "current and relevant truth" Lol. It told me nothing except ICE is trying to deport the worst of the worst offenders... gave no educational stats, poverty stats, overall percentages of crimes, percentage of children with foreign born parents collecting welfare.. well it proved nothing except the top 5 gangs are South American and 18th street gang is 80% illegal immigrant Mexicans and Central Americans. That link had nothing of substance on the contributions of illegal immigrants. Post real figures on the issue and we will talk.

mohawkx, you got it!
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Old 06-14-2010, 05:24 AM
Yac
 
4,139 posts, read 3,376,131 times
Everybody please calm down. I'm sure you all can debate the issue, not other members. Try it, maybe for once you'll leave this place less angry than when you entered
Yac.
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Old 06-14-2010, 05:53 AM
 
Location: Metro West- Boston, MA
9,259 posts, read 2,980,467 times
Reputation: 3494
Puki asks:

Have you ever been to Guatemala?

No, I have not. I'm sure it's hard living there. However, does that mean that we should let everyone from there who wants a better life to come to the USA tomorrow? Do we have the resources to allow everyone from there who wants a better life to come to the USA tomorrow?

Hey Puki: have you ever been to Haiti? I have. It's not a nice place.
Do we have the resources to allow everyone from there who wants a better life to come to the USA tomorrow?


Have you ever been to Africa? Do we have the resources to allow everyone from there who wants a better life to come to the USA tomorrow?

See question number 1 in the OP- Why does the USA have immigration laws? I could go on an on here but you get the point. Or- in reading some of your posts maybe you don't. In the meantime people like you want to pick and choose who should be allowed to break the law and enter the country at will. Where do we draw the line? There are billions of people around the world who want a better life. Should we allow them all to come here?
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