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Old 06-12-2010, 01:32 AM
 
358 posts, read 333,785 times
Reputation: 107

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Quote:
Originally Posted by puki View Post
It is not that they aren't "hardly passed out anymore" (like candy at a circus!). It is that there are quotas (that haven't changed in years) and also, this visa is difficult for employers to get because they have to prove that they need foreign laborers to do their jobs that most Americans will not take.

I can't imagine why an American wouldn't want to take an agricultural job where they will work 10-12 hour days of moderate-hard labor, no insurance benefits, short breaks, paid $7.25/hr or less (possibly paid by how many containers are filled depending on the crop and task)....hmmmm. Such a puzzling situation.

Makes sense... 3% of the illegal immigrant workforce is in "farming"
Unauthorized Migrants - Pew Hispanic Center
And just so you know the H2-A is on a supply/ demand basis.


You said something about not finding anything about white Europeans, which is interesting, because I know a great deal of what some might call "Eurotrash" that have entered the US on the VWP and overstayed it. And what are they doing? Committing crimes and spending time in American jails. No different than some of your favorite people coming from Mexico and Central/South America.

Wow! so now we are being invaded by Eurotrash? can you please post the percentage of the overall illegal immigrant population that is the race Eurotrash? I do not doubt for one second there a some here, at the same time they are a drop in the bucket compared to our southern border.

You said that you rate your love/hatred of illegal immigrants by their productivity and contributions. I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, but I will take a broad guess and draw up a quick scenario:

ZZZzzzzzzZzz....

Let's say Jose Manuel enters illegally from Guatemala.

He lives in CA where he works as a dishwasher for minimum wage during the day and in a clothing factory at night. He buys a fake SSN and green card so he can keep that job. He learns he can pay taxes on his wages with an ITIN provided by the IRS (yikes! the IRS!). He files an HONEST TAX RETURN every year he is here. He does not claim a fake amount of dependents on his W4 either...like his friends tell him to do.

Yes... my heartstrings are being tugged.. let me think here... ITIN does not authorize someone to work in the United States, so Jose's employer is breaking the law. He gets the ITIN NOT to pay into taxes so that he can contribute.. but so that he can claim his wife as a dependent, get various child tax credits and education credits (not to mention claiming false write offs). There was language in the IRS Inspector General's 1999 report implying that both "revenue protection issues" and "operational problems during the implementation" period resulted in the ITIN being vulnerable to fraud. He pays in a lot of money in taxes working minimum wage....

He joins the selective service as required by US law because they don't care if you are legal or not as long as you are available in the event of a draft.

Ahhh...lol.. after breaking the law by coming to America, and stealing someone's SSN and greencard now he's worried about selective service....Lol...wow I really enjoyed that laugh, thank you.

He takes the free ESL classes at the local community center.

Wow, he needs to come over here! there is no need for speaking English in SoCal!

He stays out of trouble with the police, respects his neighbors, and generally keep a low profile.

Paying taxes? Staying out of jail? Learning English? I don't know, but this sounds pretty productive to me.
Being a net burden on our tax system? lol.. learning English? sounds like a winner to me If you could only spend one day where I live.... all this wet fantasy you have of Jose would go right out the window.
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Old 06-12-2010, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Massachusetts
10,032 posts, read 6,902,138 times
Reputation: 4207
Quote:
Originally Posted by puki View Post
It is not that they aren't "hardly passed out anymore" (like candy at a circus!). It is that there are quotas (that haven't changed in years) and also, this visa is difficult for employers to get because they have to prove that they need foreign laborers to do their jobs that most Americans will not take.

I can't imagine why an American wouldn't want to take an agricultural job where they will work 10-12 hour days of moderate-hard labor, no insurance benefits, short breaks, paid $7.25/hr or less (possibly paid by how many containers are filled depending on the crop and task)....hmmmm. Such a puzzling situation.

You said something about not finding anything about white Europeans, which is interesting, because I know a great deal of what some might call "Eurotrash" that have entered the US on the VWP and overstayed it. And what are they doing? Committing crimes and spending time in American jails. No different than some of your favorite people coming from Mexico and Central/South America.

You said that you rate your love/hatred of illegal immigrants by their productivity and contributions. I'm not sure what you mean, exactly, but I will take a broad guess and draw up a quick scenario:

Let's say Jose Manuel enters illegally from Guatemala.

He lives in CA where he works as a dishwasher for minimum wage during the day and in a clothing factory at night. He buys a fake SSN and green card so he can keep that job. He learns he can pay taxes on his wages with an ITIN provided by the IRS (yikes! the IRS!). He files an HONEST TAX RETURN every year he is here. He does not claim a fake amount of dependents on his W4 either...like his friends tell him to do.

He joins the selective service as required by US law because they don't care if you are legal or not as long as you are available in the event of a draft.

He takes the free ESL classes at the local community center.

He stays out of trouble with the police, respects his neighbors, and generally keep a low profile.

Paying taxes? Staying out of jail? Learning English? I don't know, but this sounds pretty productive to me.


Really? So what happens when Jose gets sick and needs medical attention? Does his dishwashing job or clothing factory job provide him with health insurance? When he goes to the ER, uses it as his primary care physician, and walks away fron the bill who pays for that?
When Jose drives a car with no license or insurance and hits another motorist who pays for that? Jose took the free ESL classes at the local community center? Who paid for that?
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Old 06-12-2010, 11:42 AM
 
27 posts, read 19,956 times
Reputation: 13
A) Pew research is only ONE type of research, just like your little Chicano sociology study on which you base all your other "facts".

B) No one said in my scenario that Jose Manuels fake SSN was actually someone else's. I said it was fake because usual they are. If it happened to be someone's, he would have been charged with a misdemeanor because the majority of ID theft cases are misdemeanors. I'm sure some of your white power buddies have been charged with misdemeanors, but lets not compare apples to oranges because Hispanic people can never be as good as whites, right?

PS - Obviously an ITIN does not allow someone to work, but it does allow someone to pay taxes that otherwise wouldn't. I never said an ITIN authorized someone to work, so thanks for uselessly sharing that information.

3) Entering the country illegal is a break of civil law, not criminal law. Don't like it? Write to your congresspeople who MADE THIS LAW.

4) I specifically said that Jose Manuel did NOT falsely claim dependents or claim any for that matter because he has none. His family is back in Guatemala.

5) This is not a "wet fantasy" situation because this was exactly my husband's situation though the scenario is certainly not unique to just him.

6) Funny you should mention the hospital situation. My husband's finger was cut open at one of his jobs, that no, did not provide health insurance. Let me see Americans line up for that job! Anyway, he went to the ER, required stitches, and guess what? He paid his ER bill which was close to $2000. It took him a few years, but the hospital gladly took his money monthly so he could pay it off.

I know people of all colors and legal statuses who have left hospital bills unpaid. I would be willing to bet that some of your white power buddies have done it since white power usually crosses over with white trash and we all know that white trash is plagued with the exact same issues that you claim all of your favorite brown people are affected by: uneducated, lack of personal responsibility, criminal records, unpaid bills, big families, rude manners, etc. White trash even have the power to literally live off of welfare. Illegal immigrants do not.

But no one on this forum complains about white trash being a burden on US taxpayers which I find incredibly ironic. Let's all be honest. Before there was such a large influx of immigrants in the US and the not so silent racism that allowed for huge, sweeping generalizations, its own citizens exploited and continue to exploit the services available to lower income people.

Also, the complaints about illegal immigrants taking all the welfare is BS. Only pregnant mothers get medicaid and WIC. They may qualify for food stamps eventually, but not right away. Their children literally anchor nothing for them because their children will never be able to petition their parents to the US to become permanent residents since their parents will require a waiver for illegal presence and children are not qualifying relatives for that purpose. So their goes your anchor baby myth. So sad.

Even legal permanent residents are not eligible for any sort of welfare relief until after 5 years of holding a green card OR naturalizing depending on how they were petitioned to the US.

one last thing. Please do not lecture me about "you should see where I live". Honey, I live in a neighborhood that you would literally have a seizure from trying to call ICE on all the brown people you see.

And not just the Hispanics are brown. There are dozens of Iranians here as well as a small number of Koreans. There is a also a growing number of east African immigrants.

But guess who causes the majority of the gang problems here? High school age white boys (yes, white!), black boys, and Chicanos (aka US citizens).

Last edited by puki; 06-12-2010 at 11:54 AM..
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Old 06-12-2010, 12:02 PM
 
Location: Massachusetts
10,032 posts, read 6,902,138 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puki View Post
5) This is not a "wet fantasy" situation because this was exactly my husband's situation though the scenario is certainly not unique to just him.

And there you have it. She supports crimmigrants because she married one. Your bias is disgusting.

"Who cares what's in the best interest of the country and it's citizens. We need more of my husband's people here."
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Old 06-12-2010, 12:08 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
12,934 posts, read 10,288,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Roma View Post
Really? So what happens when Jose gets sick and needs medical attention? Does his dishwashing job or clothing factory job provide him with health insurance? When he goes to the ER, uses it as his primary care physician, and walks away fron the bill who pays for that?
When Jose drives a car with no license or insurance and hits another motorist who pays for that? Jose took the free ESL classes at the local community center? Who paid for that?
I agree that this is a problem with illegal immigrants.

But guess what? It's also a problem with US citizens. seeing as a good 40-50 million of them can't afford health insurance, either... What happens when they go to the ER? And Conservatives seem perfectly fine with that system.
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Old 06-12-2010, 12:25 PM
 
27 posts, read 19,956 times
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Rick, does it also disgust you that your congressperson's laws allowed my husband to re-enter the country legally after filing a waiver for his illegal presence? He is a legal permanent resident now. Again, misguided anger is annoying, but kind of humorous at the same time. If your panties get in a bunch thinking about illegal immigrants talk to your lawmakers. Yep. That's who controls who gets in and out of this country. YOUR elected officials.

If you go back to my first post, I recognized that there are a number of people here illegally that should not be, but I suppose people like you only read what you want to read. Living in ignorance is so much easier than admitting your logic is terribly flawed. Good luck with being successful in life with that tactic.
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Old 06-12-2010, 12:40 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,320,862 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by puki View Post
Let's say Jose Manuel enters illegally from Guatemala.
I would say that makes Jose an illegal alien. A law breaker. Not something he should be rewarded for, right?
Quote:
He lives in CA where he works as a dishwasher for minimum wage during the day and in a clothing factory at night.
Well, Jose has just contributed to the rising unemployment figures in America. It sounds like Jose is all about Jose, and not really about doing what's right for the community where he works. He not only took one job away from the lawful job seekers, but Jose did it twice. He took two jobs, and did so illegally. One unpunished crime has lead to another... LOL
Quote:
He buys a fake SSN and green card so he can keep that job.
Again, crime follows moral corruption. Jose's coveting has now lead him to commit fraud. I guess Jose is really not such an outstanding member of the community after all, is he? Is Jose someone that we should teach our children to honor and respect? Is Jose a role model for America's new youth? It appears that Jose has been taught that using someone else's SSN, or creating a fraudulent one, is acceptable if it allows Jose to "get a head" and live the "American dream", whatever that dream may be. Is coveting, deceit and fraud an American dream that should be honored and rewarded? Perhaps it is on Wall Street, but do we really want more of that in this country? Is Jose's goal to become like Wall Street?
Quote:
and He learns he can pay taxes on his wages with an ITIN provided by the IRS (yikes! the IRS!)
Where did Jose learn this from? Can you show me an IRS document that tells Jose he can work ILLEGALLY in the US? Or did Jose just assume this? What is Jose's IQ? Jose may be a very good reason to require an IQ test for everyone crossing the border..LOL
Quote:
He files an HONEST TAX RETURN every year he is here. He does not claim a fake amount of dependents on his W4 either...like his friends tell him to do.
So now Jose is an upright guy because he files an HONEST TAX RETURN. Why is that something Jose should be rewarded for. I'm not rewarded when I do it. So let me understand this, in Guatemala, where Jose was presumably educated, when you do what is right you should expect a reward? Is Jose not expected to do what is right? And who are these "friends" that tell Jose to claim fake dependents? Why are they "his friends"? Shouldn't Jose make better friends? Bad company corrupts good morals, did you know this? Not only is Jose a fraud but "his friends" want to encourage this type of bad behavior. Are Jose's friends also from Guatemala, or are these the guys from Wall Street where Jose dreams of working?
Quote:
He joins the selective service as required by US law because they don't care if you are legal or not as long as you are available in the event of a draft.
Actually, everyone (regardless of immigration status) has to register. It's what is known as being considered equal under the law....LOL. I hope you're not suggesting that the US military should discriminate against those within it's borders that are being PROTECTED by that very military, right? But again, why should Jose be rewarded for choosing what laws to abide by and which laws to break?

Quote:
He takes the free ESL classes at the local community center.
Who paid for the community center? Was it actually built for free? Who maintains and pays for this "community center" to operate? Did Jose really get those English lessons for free?

Quote:
He stays out of trouble with the police, respects his neighbors, and generally keep a low profile.
Jose is a law breaking, fraudulent and coveting thief. There is nothing good about what Jose is doing. Nothing. The fact that Jose is not out gang banging, raping and pillaging the community (like many of his friends do) is really not sufficient (in my book) to be considered as a candidate for American citizenship. That may be the case in Guatemala or Mexico (or some other lawless nation), but not in America. At least not yet any way...LOL.

Quote:
Paying taxes? Staying out of jail? Learning English? I don't know, but this sounds pretty productive to me.
Not to me. Jose is still a criminal and is certainly not the type of persons we should be thinking of legalizing. If Jose is so "productive" as you suggest, would it not be better for him to stay in Guatemala where he can do some good for his own people? Doesn't Guatemala need Jose more than America?
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Old 06-12-2010, 12:48 PM
 
27 posts, read 19,956 times
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I'm glad you aren't a lawmaker.

But you can always talk to your lawmaker who allowed Jose to be pardoned for his civil law violation of entering the country illegally. Jose was not rewarded. He was pardoned. He was legally granted residency on a number of conditions after his US citizen spouse sought to make it right. Because guess what? There is a way to make it right because of your elected officials in Congress. This had nothing to do with his all-powerful brownness. It had everything to do with following the laws set forth in the US by Congress.

Many of us US citizens have also violated civil laws so aren't we all morally corrupt? By your logic we should be on the road to acting as criminals. See you in jail! Maybe we can be cellmates?

Have you ever been to Guatemala? If you are lower class, you very rarely stand a chance at leaving that class.

One last thing about the ESL classes. You want people to learn the language if they come here, right? But then when they do, you find something else to ***** about...confusing.
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:23 PM
 
358 posts, read 333,785 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by puki View Post
A) Pew research is only ONE type of research, just like your little Chicano sociology study on which you base all your other "facts".

Lol.. I tried to give you unbiased Facts so that you cannot cry racist. The study was conducted by the Chicano studies out of UCLA, only study of it's kind. The Pew study is also considered unbiased, but there are many studies supporting my verifiable Facts. Sorry you don't agree, but your feelings are just that- feelings and not fact.

B) No one said in my scenario that Jose Manuels fake SSN was actually someone else's. I said it was fake because usual they are. If it happened to be someone's, he would have been charged with a misdemeanor because the majority of ID theft cases are misdemeanors.

More than likely it is, did he run it to check? it had to be valid in the first place or his employer would have been notified, otherwise after a year the Social Security Administration would send a letter to the employer requesting the correct one because of a mismatch. There really is no enforcement of the identity laws when it comes to illegal immigrants, could you please post these numbers?

I'm sure some of your white power buddies have been charged with misdemeanors, but lets not compare apples to oranges because Hispanic people can never be as good as whites, right?

Lol... good ole race card. Now I'm some ignorant Nazi trash, nice one. Goes to show me how ignorant you are. You see- I am giving you verifiable facts and not some racist opinion. And FYI people of every race commit crimes, but can you tell me why 27% of the Federal inmates are aliens? seems kind of high for the overall percentage of the population they represent.

PS - Obviously an ITIN does not allow someone to work, but it does allow someone to pay taxes that otherwise wouldn't. I never said an ITIN authorized someone to work, so thanks for uselessly sharing that information.

I was clarifying that point, for those that think employers can hire them with an ITIN. I also showed you how they are able to get all their money back and then some at the end of the year by using an ITIN. People working as dishwashers and picking fruits have 0 tax liability.


3) Entering the country illegal is a break of civil law, not criminal law. Don't like it? Write to your congresspeople who MADE THIS LAW.

It's not just the laws they break while crossing, it's the subsequent use of Americans ID, driving without a license, no insurance (depending on the state), etc... we can go over the definition of criminal all day and what it entails.. regardless they are breaking the law.

4) I specifically said that Jose Manuel did NOT falsely claim dependents or claim any for that matter because he has none. His family is back in Guatemala.

Well.. thats great. He is one of the few that could not get his entire family here illegally. Tell that to California, where 7.7 billion is spent annually educating the children of illegal immigrants.


5) This is not a "wet fantasy" situation because this was exactly my husband's situation though the scenario is certainly not unique to just him.

Soo.. it raises an important question. What happened to his family in Guatemala? is he still married to his Guatemalan wife? and you?? this question is serious, I have had several workers with families in Mexico and America, they would take weeks off to visit the other wife and family back in Mexico.

6) Funny you should mention the hospital situation. My husband's finger was cut open at one of his jobs, that no, did not provide health insurance. Let me see Americans line up for that job! Anyway, he went to the ER, required stitches, and guess what? He paid his ER bill which was close to $2000. It took him a few years, but the hospital gladly took his money monthly so he could pay it off.

I highly doubt it. If I had to bet he never paid...
"Another problem is immigrants’ use of hospital and emergency services rather than preventative medical care. For example, utilization rate of hospitals and clinics by illegal aliens (29 percent) is more than twice the rate of the overall U.S. population (11 percent)"
"As a result, the costs of medical care for immigrants are staggering. The estimated cost of unreimbursed medical care in 2004 in California was about $1.4 billion per year. In Texas, the estimated cost was about $.85 billion, and in Arizona the comparable estimate was $.4 billion per year."
The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR): Illegal Immigration and Public Health


I know people of all colors and legal statuses who have left hospital bills unpaid.

Yep. It happens, so it's OK to foot the bill for illegal immigrants? because there are Americans here that cannot afford healthcare?


I would be willing to bet that some of your white power buddies have done it since white power usually crosses over with white trash and we all know that white trash is plagued with the exact same issues that you claim all of your favorite brown people are affected by: uneducated, lack of personal responsibility, criminal records, unpaid bills, big families, rude manners, etc. White trash even have the power to literally live off of welfare. Illegal immigrants do not.

LOL! wow! someone is realllllly reaching on this one. Thanks for the White trash comment, appreciate that. Problem is they are Americans, just like the fourth generation Hispanics that are worse off than the first generation, or any other Trash from any race. Difference is this: Uneducated illegal immigrants are flooding our borders every year, causing an unsustainable burden to our society. This lowers the living standard of American citizens, and it's unfair for all Americans- regardless of race. Illegal immigrants CAN live off welfare in California. Pop out a few American kids and you can collect food stamps, cash aid, HUD housing, section 8, medical for the kids. At least those children grow up to be responsible members of society.

But no one on this forum complains about white trash being a burden on US taxpayers which I find incredibly ironic. Let's all be honest. Before there was such a large influx of immigrants in the US and the not so silent racism that allowed for huge, sweeping generalizations, its own citizens exploited and continue to exploit the services available to lower income people.

Once again, trash come in all colors. You are not getting the entire point: Illegal immigrants are a drain on the American economy, and do not belong here. By your reasoning we should accept the cost associated with illegal immigrants, because there is Americans that are a drain as well. That kind of fallacious logic only works on the ignorant. Keep in mind EVERY American can get an education and further themselves, it's their own fault for being lower income.



Also, the complaints about illegal immigrants taking all the welfare is BS. Only pregnant mothers get medicaid and WIC. They may qualify for food stamps eventually, but not right away. Their children literally anchor nothing for them because their children will never be able to petition their parents to the US to become permanent residents since their parents will require a waiver for illegal presence and children are not qualifying relatives for that purpose. So their goes your anchor baby myth. So sad.

During the IRCA episode in America the pro amnesty crowd was screaming "keep the families together", this was the main focal point, compassion for the people that came here illegally and gave birth to American citizens. I am tired of hearing that "compassion" argument. We have to take care of Americans first, then worry about others later. California spends 10.2 billion a year on illegal immigrants and their families that equals a $1,183 payment per California household. According to new data from the Department of Public Social Services, nearly twenty five percent of Los Angeles County ’s welfare and food stamp benefits goes directly to the children of illegal aliens, at a cost of $36 million a month -- for a projected annual cost of $432 million.
“The total cost for illegal immigrants to County taxpayers far exceeds $1 billion a year – not including the millions of dollars for education,” said Antonovich. “With $220 million for public safety, $400 million for healthcare, and $432 million in welfare allocations, illegal immigration continues to have a devastating impact on Los Angeles County taxpayers.” Keep in mind that California makes up 12% of the countries population, but 30% of the welfare recipients.

Even legal permanent residents are not eligible for any sort of welfare relief until after 5 years of holding a green card OR naturalizing depending on how they were petitioned to the US.

We have already determined they collect benefits through anchor babies.

one last thing. Please do not lecture me about "you should see where I live". Honey, I live in a neighborhood that you would literally have a seizure from trying to call ICE on all the brown people you see.

Then you of all people should know. Guess you are biased since you married an illegal immigrant.

And not just the Hispanics are brown. There are dozens of Iranians here as well as a small number of Koreans. There is a also a growing number of east African immigrants.

Yes... that is the bulk of illegal immigrant problems. East Africans and Koreans along with Iranians.

But guess who causes the majority of the gang problems here? High school age white boys (yes, white!), black boys, and Chicanos (aka US citizens).
Lol.. look up all of the illegal immigrants in gangs out here in California, certain gangs are over 50% illegal immigrants. Can you post some numbers on the race/ gang issue? and let me ask you something else.. if the illegal immigrants were not here breeding future gang bangers would we have all these Chicano gang members?
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Old 06-12-2010, 01:28 PM
 
358 posts, read 333,785 times
Reputation: 107
Quote:
Originally Posted by puki View Post
I'm glad you aren't a lawmaker.

But you can always talk to your lawmaker who allowed Jose to be pardoned for his civil law violation of entering the country illegally. Jose was not rewarded. He was pardoned. He was legally granted residency on a number of conditions after his US citizen spouse sought to make it right. Because guess what? There is a way to make it right because of your elected officials in Congress. This had nothing to do with his all-powerful brownness. It had everything to do with following the laws set forth in the US by Congress.

Many of us US citizens have also violated civil laws so aren't we all morally corrupt? By your logic we should be on the road to acting as criminals. See you in jail! Maybe we can be cellmates?

Have you ever been to Guatemala? If you are lower class, you very rarely stand a chance at leaving that class.

One last thing about the ESL classes. You want people to learn the language if they come here, right? But then when they do, you find something else to ***** about...confusing.

Woooow.... so you married an illegal immigrant, allow him citizenship. Good for you. So... can I ask you something seriously?? is Jose still washing dishes? or did he work his way up to cook? is he still getting all his money back from the IRS? how about his level of education? does he even have the equivalent of a high school diploma?
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