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Old 06-17-2010, 12:28 PM
Status: "Tioli: Troll exterminator" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Arizona
12,848 posts, read 7,419,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
You would be wrong then. I am not going to search all the posts for you but there have been numerous posters in here that have claimed that illegal immigration is good for our country. Do the lines "who is going to pick our fruits and veggies", "illegals are good for our economy", "doing the jobs Americans won't do" "without illegals tomatoes would be 10 bucks a pound" "they pay in more in taxes than they take out" blah, blah, blah ring a bell?
With all due respect, I think you may be conveniently mixing illegal immigrants with immigrants. Hopefully all the fruit and vegetable picking would be done by legal immigrants or American citizens. I think we all want that. If this isn't common knowledge, then I'll make it common knowledge, All produce should be picked by legal immigrants or american citizens.

Everyone on both sides of the issue realize the financial drain on our country and wants it stopped.

"Doing the jobs americans won't do" does not automaticly translate into supporting illegal immigration. That's what work permits are for.

"without illegals tomatoes would be 10 bucks a pound". This is a myth, perpetrated by uninformed people. No worse that the antis perpetrating the myth that all those who don't agree with their agenda is pro illegal immigration.

"they pay in more in taxes than they take out" Technically, this is true, thay may not get the taxes back that they paid into the system through withholding but One point I do agree on is that they siphon off way more than they contribute through the school system and the health care system.

The bottom line is, once again, that nobody on either side of the issue is for illegal immigration. We all want it stopped and stopped immediately. We recognize that it is a destablizing influence on our nation. Where we differ is that the faction I'm aligned with wants the borders closed immediately and comprehensive immigration reform to follow. We would go after the government and the dishonest employers. Your faction on the other hand want all illegals rounded up and sent back to where they came from along with their anchor babies; no compromise in your agenda. You want to go after a bunch of peasants and their children. You are willing to give up constitutional guarentees, subject the entire nation to draconian measures and destroy an entire culture to achieve this agenda. This is where we disagree and there will be no consensus between the two points of view.

Last edited by mohawkx; 06-17-2010 at 12:38 PM..
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Old 06-17-2010, 12:38 PM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,366,441 times
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What does One Country benefit From illegal imigration over another! Does it really matter the Country, Illegals coming to this Country by illegal means, gets no special prefence in any way, The Country does not matter in the least, if your in this Country illegally, then you need to just leave.
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:15 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,183,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkx View Post
With all due respect, I think you may be conveniently mixing illegal immigrants with immigrants. Hopefully all the fruit and vegetable picking would be done by legal immigrants or American citizens. I think we all want that. If this isn't common knowledge, then I'll make it common knowledge, All produce should be picked by legal immigrants or american citizens.

Everyone on both sides of the issue realize the financial drain on our country and wants it stopped.

"Doing the jobs americans won't do" does not automaticly translate into supporting illegal immigration. That's what work permits are for.

"without illegals tomatoes would be 10 bucks a pound". This is a myth, perpetrated by uninformed people. No worse that the antis perpetrating the myth that all those who don't agree with their agenda is pro illegal immigration.

"they pay in more in taxes than they take out" Technically, this is true, thay may not get the taxes back that they paid into the system through withholding but One point I do agree on is that they siphon off way more than they contribute through the school system and the health care system.

The bottom line is, once again, that nobody on either side of the issue is for illegal immigration. We all want it stopped and stopped immediately. We recognize that it is a destablizing influence on our nation. Where we differ is that the faction I'm aligned with wants the borders closed immediately and comprehensive immigration reform to follow. We would go after the government and the dishonest employers. Your faction on the other hand want all illegals rounded up and sent back to where they came from along with their anchor babies; no compromise in your agenda. You want to go after a bunch of peasants and their children. You are willing to give up constitutional guarentees, subject the entire nation to draconian measures and destroy an entire culture to achieve this agenda. This is where we disagree and there will be no consensus between the two points of view.
The lines I quoted were from posters who were defending illegal immigration not legal immigration and that is what your initial post was about.

You are incorrect in what most of us anti's want. We want e-verify in place and the employers held accountable and fined and /or jailed if they don't comply. We want deportation through attrition not mass deportation as you are erroneously implying. With no jobs and benefits most will self-deport. We want all incentives removed for any new illegals to come here and we want secure borders.

You are correct that we don't want the kind of CIR that would include amnesty/legalization. Rewarding law breakers is never a good thing. You can use warm and fuzzy words like they are "peasants" to gain sympathy for them but the bottom line is that they are immigration law breakers and should be deported not rewarded. They aren't children without a conscience that shouldn't be held accountable, they are adults and know the difference between right and wrong. Children belong with their parents so their citizen children need to follow them. These citizen children can decide when they are 18 what country they want to live in. Mexico offers dual citizenship so there shouldn't be a problem there.

Destroying an entire culture? Who's culture are you referring to?
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Old 06-17-2010, 01:39 PM
Status: "Tioli: Troll exterminator" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Arizona
12,848 posts, read 7,419,181 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
The lines I quoted were from posters who were defending illegal immigration not legal immigration and that is what your initial post was about.

You are incorrect in what most of us anti's want. We want e-verify in place and the employers held accountable and fined and /or jailed if they don't comply. We want deportation through attrition not mass deportation as you are erroneously implying. With no jobs and benefits most will self-deport. We want all incentives removed for any new illegals to come here and we want secure borders.

You are correct that we don't want the kind of CIR that would include amnesty/legalization. Rewarding law breakers is never a good thing. You can use warm and fuzzy words like they are "peasants" to gain sympathy for them but the bottom line is that they are immigration law breakers and should be deported not rewarded. They aren't children without a conscience that shouldn't be held accountable, they are adults and know the difference between right and wrong. Children belong with their parents so their citizen children need to follow them. These citizen children can decide when they are 18 what country they want to live in. Mexico offers dual citizenship so there shouldn't be a problem there.

Destroying an entire culture? Who's culture are you referring to?
Well, I can rest easy now, knowing that we are on the same page. I too, want the exact same thing. The gov. to secure the borders from any additional illegals coming in and strict enforcement of the e-verify system. With your solution, I guess we will all sit back and watch the 15 million illegals self deport themselves. Problen solved. No need for the Black Vans and swat teams kicking in doors of suspected illegal immigrant habitats at 3 AM. No need for a national ID card, no need for a constitutional amendment to deny citizenship to those born in this country.

What do you figure? They'll all self deport in 6 mos.? A year? 5 years?

What should we pay the American citizen to pick our produce? What would be fair? 12.00 hr? 15.00 hr? I don't think 30 cents a bushel for artichokes is going to cut it for the average American worker. Should we require the employers to offer health care benefits or pay a fine?

In any case it is extremely refreshing that you and your like minded supporters don't want to round up all illegals(mostly hispanic) in one massive sweep and dump them at their border of origin. Thanks for clarifying that.
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Old 06-17-2010, 02:03 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,183,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkx View Post
Well, I can rest easy now, knowing that we are on the same page. I too, want the exact same thing. The gov. to secure the borders from any additional illegals coming in and strict enforcement of the e-verify system. With your solution, I guess we will all sit back and watch the 15 million illegals self deport themselves. Problen solved. No need for the Black Vans and swat teams kicking in doors of suspected illegal immigrant habitats at 3 AM. No need for a national ID card, no need for a constitutional amendment to deny citizenship to those born in this country.

What do you figure? They'll all self deport in 6 mos.? A year? 5 years?

What should we pay the American citizen to pick our produce? What would be fair? 12.00 hr? 15.00 hr? I don't think 30 cents a bushel for artichokes is going to cut it for the average American worker. Should we require the employers to offer health care benefits or pay a fine?

In any case it is extremely refreshing that you and your like minded supporters don't want to round up all illegals(mostly hispanic) in one massive sweep and dump them at their border of origin. Thanks for clarifying that.
No, we still need a national ID card and we still need an amendment to change birthright citizenship because they are a part of removing the incentives to come here. We still need internal enforcement until the incentives are removed to stay here such as jobs and benefits. We are waiting for our government to remove those incentives but guess what the pro-illegals are balking at that because no matter what we do the bottom line is that they don't want the illegals removed voluntarily or involuntarily. I don't imagine it will take very long for self-deportations to occur if our government ignores the pro-illegals and does the right thing by implementing e-verify and cutting off benefits and incentives for illegals to remain here after that.

FYI, there are unlimited H-2A visas for legal immigrant crop pickers so that blows that part of your argument, doesn't it? Currently the farmers are refusing to use them because it is cheaper to hire illegal aliens instead.
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Old 06-17-2010, 02:22 PM
Status: "Tioli: Troll exterminator" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Arizona
12,848 posts, read 7,419,181 times
Reputation: 6780
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
No, we still need a national ID card and we still need an amendment to change birthright citizenship because they are a part of removing the incentives to come here. We still need internal enforcement until the incentives are removed to stay here such as jobs and benefits. We are waiting for our government to remove those incentives but guess what the pro-illegals are balking at that because no matter what we do the bottom line is that they don't want the illegals removed voluntarily or involuntarily. I don't imagine it will take very long for self-deportations to occur if our government ignores the pro-illegals and does the right thing by implementing e-verify and cutting off benefits and incentives for illegals to remain here after that.

FYI, there are unlimited H-2A visas for legal immigrant crop pickers so that blows that part of your argument, doesn't it? Currently the farmers are refusing to use them because it is cheaper to hire illegal aliens instead.
Well if that's the case then why wouldn't it be a solution to offer H-2A visas to the people who are already picking produce and have been for years? Ah!!! I think I know the answer, Punishment! They must be punished! They must be punished because the government has left the border a sieve since the Reagan Administration. They must be punished because the greedy employers have been hiring them since the turn of the 20th century to improve the bottom line. I get it now.

Additionally, I'm not argueing with you. I'm agreeing with you. If, as you say, the government removes the incentives for illegals to come here they will all self deport. Then you and I have no arguement.

And one more thing, if you're on a discussion forum, I assume you want to discuss. You kill all discussion by labeling me and anyone who disagrees with you and your ideas as "pro-illegal immigration". None of us, least of all me, are "for illegal immigration. Why is it so hard for you to grasp that fact?
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Old 06-17-2010, 02:37 PM
 
8,973 posts, read 14,648,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkx View Post
I don't ever recall any posts on CD where anyone claimed that illegal immigration is good, that it should be allowed or that illegal immigrants should not be penalized.
You DON'T?? NEVER?..you've never heard ANY of the above sentiments expressed on the forum? By ANYONE ? EVER? Hmmmmm.....OK. You could have fooled me.

But I suppose you have a point. As for myself, I've never heard ANYONE on this forum..EVER...express the point that "I don't care about illegal immigration itself; as far as I'm concerned, it's a non-issue....I can take it or leave it; makes no difference to me. The reason I'm virulently opposed to illegals is not because they've broken the law; have brought on massive disrespect for our institutions, are enormously costly in terms of social spending, and are instrumental in lowering the wage scale across a broad spectrum of American blue-collar jobs....no, the reason I object to illegals is BECAUSE THEY'RE HISPANIC ! ....(or because it seems to me that MOST of them are"...

So in the end, I see your point....no one on the forum 'really' espouses illegal immigration....and no one on the forum is 'really' racist, either...I guess we're both right.

Thanks for the eye-opener. Things aren't always as they seem...right?
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Old 06-17-2010, 02:44 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,183,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkx View Post
Well if that's the case then why wouldn't it be a solution to offer H-2A visas to the people who are already picking produce and have been for years? Ah!!! I think I know the answer, Punishment! They must be punished! They must be punished because the government has left the border a sieve since the Reagan Administration. They must be punished because the greedy employers have been hiring them since the turn of the 20th century to improve the bottom line. I get it now.

Additionally, I'm not argueing with you. I'm agreeing with you. If, as you say, the government removes the incentives for illegals to come here they will all self deport. Then you and I have no arguement.

And one more thing, if you're on a discussion forum, I assume you want to discuss. You kill all discussion by labeling me and anyone who disagrees with you and your ideas as "pro-illegal immigration". None of us, least of all me, are "for illegal immigration. Why is it so hard for you to grasp that fact?
No, those potential crop pickers still waiting to come here legally should be rewarded for that by giving them the visas.

You forget that there is a three part guilt in this illegal immigration mess. You only counted two of them, our government and the employers. You left out the guilt on the part of the illegal aliens.

Well, calling someone pro-illegal because they are sympathizers and fight for illegal aliens to stay here isn't a term so far off, is it? On the other hand we anti's get tired of being called anti-immigrant when clearly we are not. We are anti-illegal immigration.

By the way, why the focus on crop pickers anyway? They only make up 1-2% of our workforce. What about all the other jobs that illegals are doing that Americans will do? Should we consider it "punishment" if they are fired from their jobs and their jobs given to Americans?

Last edited by chicagonut; 06-17-2010 at 02:52 PM..
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:09 PM
Status: "Tioli: Troll exterminator" (set 5 days ago)
 
Location: Arizona
12,848 posts, read 7,419,181 times
Reputation: 6780
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
No, those potential crop pickers still waiting to come here legally should be rewarded for that by giving them the visas.

You forget that there is a three part guilt in this illegal immigration mess. You only counted two of them, our government and the employers. You left out the guilt on the part of the illegal aliens.

Well, calling someone pro-illegal because they are sympathizers and fight for illegal aliens to stay here isn't a term so far off, is it? On the other hand we anti's get tired of being called anti-immigrant when clearly we are not. We are anti-illegal immigration.

By the way, why the focus on crop pickers anyway? They only make up 1-2% of our workforce. What about all the other jobs that illegals are doing that Americans will do? Should we consider it "punishment" if they are fired from their jobs and their jobs given to Americans?
No one is fighting for all illegal immigrants to stay, we are fighting against all illegal immigrants and their families from being arbitrarily removed by force as so many on this forum have constantly screamed for.

Almost all produce in America is picked by immigrants legal and illegal. This makes it an issue that is front and center in the arguement. Would you prefer that I pinpointed the computer engineers who are here illegally? The medical professionals? Odds are that these folks arn't gaming the system like the crop pickers and that would shoot down the arguement by the antis that they are leaches on the system. What's the point?

Why won't you accept my agreement with much of your hypothesis? Why do you nit pick my responses looking for confrontation rather than agreement? Do I need to be in 100% lock step with your personal ideas before you find any common ground? Who made you the final arbitrator of the right course of action in this sensitive national matter. Or is it all just a matter of your opinion vs. mine?
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:20 PM
 
40 posts, read 35,418 times
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NO NO NO NO NO.

Saying that illegals can leave but some can stay to pick fruit is HORRIBLE.

The price we pay for fruit due to a straight across the board stance on illegal work is the price we pay.

Its straight across the board or it looks agenda driven. Our agenda is America, not lazy Americans who will not pick fruit or the fear of not having anyone to do it.

You cant say "send em home, but not the ones picking fruit". I completely disagree with this stance.

EVERY ILLEGAL LEAVES and Americans deal with it. We've been dealing with it for 160+ years.

Man up America!!
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