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Old 06-17-2010, 03:27 PM
Status: "Tioli: Troll exterminator" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Arizona
12,890 posts, read 7,434,958 times
Reputation: 6797

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Quote:
Originally Posted by OnePeople View Post
NO NO NO NO NO.

Saying that illegals can leave but some can stay to pick fruit is HORRIBLE.

The price we pay for fruit due to a straight across the board stance on illegal work is the price we pay.

Its straight across the board or it looks agenda driven. Our agenda is America, not lazy Americans who will not pick fruit or the fear of not having anyone to do it.

You cant say "send em home, but not the ones picking fruit". I completely disagree with this stance.

EVERY ILLEGAL LEAVES and Americans deal with it. We've been dealing with it for 160+ years.

Man up America!!
Truth of the matter is that we haven't been dealing with the issue for 160 years. That's why there's such a problem.
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:43 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkx View Post
No one is fighting for all illegal immigrants to stay, we are fighting against all illegal immigrants and their families from being arbitrarily removed by force as so many on this forum have constantly screamed for.

Almost all produce in America is picked by immigrants legal and illegal. This makes it an issue that is front and center in the arguement. Would you prefer that I pinpointed the computer engineers who are here illegally? The medical professionals? Odds are that these folks arn't gaming the system like the crop pickers and that would shoot down the arguement by the antis that they are leaches on the system. What's the point?

Why won't you accept my agreement with much of your hypothesis? Why do you nit pick my responses looking for confrontation rather than agreement? Do I need to be in 100% lock step with your personal ideas before you find any common ground? Who made you the final arbitrator of the right course of action in this sensitive national matter. Or is it all just a matter of your opinion vs. mine?
I beg to differ. Most illegal alien sympathizers do not want the illegals to leave regardless of how it is done. They want them to be able to stay and be given amnesty/legalization even a path to citizenship. Surely, you cannot deny that.

How did you jump from a blue collar job of crop picking to a white collar job of a computer engineer? It is blue collar jobs that illegals are taking but crop pickers only make up 1-2% of our blue collar workforce. What about all those other blue collar jobs that illegals are taking that Americans will do? As I asked you and you didn't answer "would you also consider that punishment to the illegals if they were fired and Americans given their jobs"?

Am I supposed to agree with you when I don't? Perhaps it IS your opinion vs mine but isn't that what debate is all about anyway? When and if I find a common ground I will agee with you.
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:54 PM
Status: "Tioli: Troll exterminator" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Arizona
12,890 posts, read 7,434,958 times
Reputation: 6797
(Addressed to Chicagonut)I'm just trying to keep up with your two step here. Crop picker was mentioned only because you brought up the H-2A issue. If the e-verify system were implimented and enforced 100%(which I firmly support) then there would be no illegal dry wallers, electricians or whatever blue collar job you want to hang on me next and Americans would have a first crack at these positions. Where's the disagreement?????
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:12 PM
Status: "Tioli: Troll exterminator" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Arizona
12,890 posts, read 7,434,958 times
Reputation: 6797
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
I beg to differ. Most illegal alien sympathizers do not want the illegals to leave regardless of how it is done. They want them to be able to stay and be given amnesty/legalization even a path to citizenship. Surely, you cannot deny that.

How did you jump from a blue collar job of crop picking to a white collar job of a computer engineer? It is blue collar jobs that illegals are taking but crop pickers only make up 1-2% of our blue collar workforce. What about all those other blue collar jobs that illegals are taking that Americans will do? As I asked you and you didn't answer "would you also consider that punishment to the illegals if they were fired and Americans given their jobs"?

Am I supposed to agree with you when I don't? Perhaps it IS your opinion vs mine but isn't that what debate is all about anyway? When and if I find a common ground I will agee with you.
So let's recap here.

We agree that the borders should be closed completely. The sooner the better.
We agree that the e-verify system should be tightly enforced, thereby opening up jobs to American citizens that were previously done by illegals. No problems here.
We agree that social service benefits should not be allowed to illegals. I have no issues with that.
You feel that if these steps were taken then the illegals will all go home of their own accord and problem solved. I'm willing to give that prognosis a shot.

Once again I ask you, where's the disagreement?
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:30 PM
 
Location: San Diego
33,003 posts, read 30,280,395 times
Reputation: 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkx View Post
So let's recap here.

We agree that the borders should be closed completely. The sooner the better.
We agree that the e-verify system should be tightly enforced, thereby opening up jobs to American citizens that were previously done by illegals. No problems here.
We agree that social service benefits should not be allowed to illegals. I have no issues with that.
You feel that if these steps were taken then the illegals will all go home of their own accord and problem solved. I'm willing to give that prognosis a shot.

Once again I ask you, where's the disagreement?
So your issue is with the removal by ICE and BP? What about the loophole in the 14h? What about those here driving without a license and insurance? What about the illegal businesses not paying taxes? The underground economies? Do we lock up those doing criminal acts here Illegally or deport them? What "law" being broke is enough for deportation?

There is a HUGE Grey area you've missed.
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:41 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkx View Post
(Addressed to Chicagonut)I'm just trying to keep up with your two step here. Crop picker was mentioned only because you brought up the H-2A issue. If the e-verify system were implimented and enforced 100%(which I firmly support) then there would be no illegal dry wallers, electricians or whatever blue collar job you want to hang on me next and Americans would have a first crack at these positions. Where's the disagreement?????
"What should we pay the American citizen to pick our produce? What would be fair? 12.00 hr? 15.00 hr? I don't think 30 cents a bushel for artichokes is going to cut it for the average American worker".

You said the above "first" and that is when I informed you that there are unlimited visas for legal immigrant crop pickers.

You claimed that illegal aliens would be punished if we allowed legal immigrants to take their crop picking jobs. Wouldn't the same theory apply if illegals were fired from their jobs and given to Americans in your mind?
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:44 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,195,062 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkx View Post
So let's recap here.

We agree that the borders should be closed completely. The sooner the better.
We agree that the e-verify system should be tightly enforced, thereby opening up jobs to American citizens that were previously done by illegals. No problems here.
We agree that social service benefits should not be allowed to illegals. I have no issues with that.
You feel that if these steps were taken then the illegals will all go home of their own accord and problem solved. I'm willing to give that prognosis a shot.

Once again I ask you, where's the disagreement?
The disagreement is that you think that at least some of the illegals should be able to remain here and be granted amnesty/legalization. I do not agree with you on that.
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Old 06-17-2010, 04:53 PM
Status: "Tioli: Troll exterminator" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Arizona
12,890 posts, read 7,434,958 times
Reputation: 6797
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer View Post
So your issue is with the removal by ICE and BP? What about the loophole in the 14h? What about those here driving without a license and insurance? What about the illegal businesses not paying taxes? The underground economies? Do we lock up those doing criminal acts here Illegally or deport them? What "law" being broke is enough for deportation?

There is a HUGE Grey area you've missed.
Well, since you brought up the issues, what are your solutions to them?

I have no issues with ICE performing their duties.
I have no issues with BP preventing illegals from entering our country with the exception that I think they could do a better job of it.
I'm not aware of any loopholes in the Constitution of the United States. As has been posted by right wing posters endlessly here, our constitution is sacrosanct and is not to be tampered with except by amendment.
Illegal businesses not paying taxes is an issue for the IRS.
The Underground economies???? Ah yes, the enemy unknown, unseen and invisable. Perhaps an 80 billion a year agency to root out the invisable underground would satisfy your paranoia.
What laws??? let's see. Stealing a loaf of bread, deportation to the Australian Penal Colonies. All others, shoot on the spot. How's that?
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:06 PM
Status: "Tioli: Troll exterminator" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: Arizona
12,890 posts, read 7,434,958 times
Reputation: 6797
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
The disagreement is that you think that at least some of the illegals should be able to remain here and be granted amnesty/legalization. I do not agree with you on that.
It took a long time for me to drag that out of you but that's where the rubber meets the road. I knew that all along but I needed to hear you admit it. Thanks for the verification. That's where we will never agree. To impose such draconian measures to acomplish this would destroy the very fabric of our country. I will never be party to the targeting of an entire culture(as the vast majority of illegals are of hispanic decent) for the sake of revenge, punishment and cleansing our country of perceived undesireables. I hold those who would, to be nothing more than fascists wrapped in the flag of patriotism, looking for a scapegoat to mitigate their fears of the future.

But it's refreshing to put our cards on the table and cut to the chase.
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Old 06-17-2010, 05:17 PM
 
Location: San Diego
33,003 posts, read 30,280,395 times
Reputation: 17817
Quote:
Originally Posted by mohawkx View Post
Well, since you brought up the issues, what are your solutions to them?

I have no issues with ICE performing their duties.
I have no issues with BP preventing illegals from entering our country with the exception that I think they could do a better job of it.
I'm not aware of any loopholes in the Constitution of the United States. As has been posted by right wing posters endlessly here, our constitution is sacrosanct and is not to be tampered with except by amendment.
Illegal businesses not paying taxes is an issue for the IRS.
The Underground economies???? Ah yes, the enemy unknown, unseen and invisable. Perhaps an 80 billion a year agency to root out the invisable underground would satisfy your paranoia.
What laws??? let's see. Stealing a loaf of bread, deportation to the Australian Penal Colonies. All others, shoot on the spot. How's that?

paranoia? You've went from someone wanting to debate to this in a week?

Ok, have it your way.

If you don't know what an underground economy is look it up. Better yet, go to a freaking swap meet or some barrios and see it for yourself.
14th Amendment. You can't have chickens without the eggs. No Illegal social service begging Parents and no children would be here as the vehicle they use to obtain them.
You can stow away your poor immigrant sob stories as there are countless reports that they normally spend 2-5 k to get smuggled over.

Or maybe us "Right Wingers" are just making it up I've never been Republican or Democrat, not that that swill matters at all.

Solutions:
Fine employers, deport workers here illegally
Second offense is jail time for the employer
random deportations
dl check points (thank you Escondido)
Modify the 14th so one Parent has to be here legally
IRS audit any business that has been caught using illegal labor

Ike has already proven Illegals will self-deport.
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