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Old 12-24-2010, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Pa
20,310 posts, read 18,904,581 times
Reputation: 6517

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Lousy sources by paranoid tin foil hatters only make a convincing argument to the highly gullible and utterly uninformed.

Far better sources:

The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia:

DTaP: Diphtheria, Tetanus and Pertussis Vaccine | The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia

National Institutes of Health:

DTaP immunization (vaccine): MedlinePlus Medical Encyclopedia

American Academy of Pediatrics:

HealthyChildren.org - Whooping Cough (Pertussis) (http://www.healthychildren.org/English/health-issues/vaccine-preventable-diseases/pages/Whooping-Cough-(Pertussis).aspx?nfstatus=401&nftoken=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000&nfstatusdescription=ERROR%3a+No+local +token - broken link)
And those of us whose children actually reacted badly to the immunizations? Coincidence? Bad luck? Collatoral damage? An acceptble price to pay for the majority?
Oh wait let me guess we made it all up?
Faked it?
My 22 year old daughter is forever damaged. She was smart and she was advanced until 1 day after her shots.

 
Old 12-24-2010, 09:23 AM
 
2,689 posts, read 3,010,525 times
Reputation: 977
vaccines are an odds game. Plain and simple. Your odds are dramatically better with the shots than without. If you don't believe me, can you show me how measles mumps and rubella have increased since the institution of vaccines? How about polio????? The only reason incidence of these illnesses may have increased in the past few years is because of the vaccine paranoia.

Plain and simple, vaccines decrease your odds against getting life threatening illnesses.

Should children be allowed to opt out....sure. However if you opt out and your kid infects other unvaccinated kids, you should have to pay for all their healthcare as well. The more children infected the more you pay. If you want to chose to be irresponsible you should pay the price.
 
Old 12-24-2010, 09:32 AM
 
2,689 posts, read 3,010,525 times
Reputation: 977
An unvaccinated child has died from a preventable disease | Bad Astronomy | Discover Magazine)

Unvaccinated child dies from 'diphtheria' - Telegraph

CDC Provides Case Reports on Varicella-Related Deaths of Three Susceptible, Unvaccinated Children

at least these kids didn't get autism.....oh wait, they're dead. There would also be a lot more like this if it weren't for vaccines.
 
Old 12-24-2010, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,828,771 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by odinloki1 View Post
Iím sure your intention was not to offend, and I understand the point you are trying to make. However, please show some sensitivity for tinman and others whose children ARE autistic.
 
Old 12-24-2010, 10:33 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,388,658 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
And those of us whose children actually reacted badly to the immunizations? Coincidence? Bad luck? Collatoral damage? An acceptble price to pay for the majority?
Oh wait let me guess we made it all up?
Faked it?
My 22 year old daughter is forever damaged. She was smart and she was advanced until 1 day after her shots.
If someone's reacting badly to the vaccine -- the mildest possible version of the disease -- what makes you think they'll react any better to the actual disease?



You don't vaccinate and you WILL get these diseases back. Measles is one of the most contagious diseases on the planet. Complications of measles include pneumonia, hearing impairment and encephalitis.

Autism has nothing to do with vaccines. Autism is merely what used to be called learning disabilities and mental retardation:

The Contribution of Diagnostic Substitution to the Growing Administrative Prevalence of Autism in US Special Education -- Shattuck 117 (4): 1028 -- Pediatrics

RESULTS. The average administrative prevalence of autism among children increased from 0.6 to 3.1 per 1000 from 1994 to 2003. By 2003, only 17 states had a special education prevalence of autism that was within the range of recent epidemiological estimates. During the same period, the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities declined by 2.8 and 8.3 per 1000, respectively. Higher autism prevalence was significantly associated with corresponding declines in the prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities. The declining prevalence of mental retardation and learning disabilities from 1994 to 2003 represented a significant downward deflection in their preexisting trajectories of prevalence from 1984 to 1993. California was one of a handful of states that did not clearly follow this pattern.

You do your daughter no favors when you attempt to scare people away from vaccines. If your family is sensitive to potential side effects from vaccines your best shot is to ask others to vaccinate so as to avoid actual outbreaks of vaccine preventable diseases. Any other course of action is short sighted and ill informed.
 
Old 12-24-2010, 10:36 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,388,658 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Iím sure your intention was not to offend, and I understand the point you are trying to make. However, please show some sensitivity for tinman and others whose children ARE autistic.
Autism and vaccines have nothing to do with each other. Having an autistic child does not give someone the right to lobby against effective public health measures nor to call for the abolishment of vaccines that protect all of us -- including the autistic -- from dangerous and contagious diseases.

I'm sorry that a small minority of parents have mistakenly latched on to a bad thesis. But that does not give them license to demand that the rest of us pretend vaccines are the cause of their children's problems. Or to spread poor information without being called on it.
 
Old 12-24-2010, 11:24 AM
 
2,689 posts, read 3,010,525 times
Reputation: 977
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
Iím sure your intention was not to offend, and I understand the point you are trying to make. However, please show some sensitivity for tinman and others whose children ARE autistic.
I do not have an intention to offend. However what if there's someone who is reading this who had a child that died of a vaccine preventable disease? How would they respond to someone campaigning against vaccinations? I'm sure they would wish their child was around with the possibility of autism vs. reality. There's two sides to every coin and in reality vaccinations are better than the alternative.

To read what many people write about vaccines is to assume that getting an MMR causes autism. first of all, the doctor that first published the report on an MMR causing autism fixed data.

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism - Times Online

Doc Who Tied Vaccine to Autism Ruled Unethical - TIME

A small portion from the article from February 2009:

Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.

Next we don't know the causes of autism.

Autism Society of America: What Causes Autism (http://www.autism-society.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_whatcauses - broken link)

Theres plenty of other things that may happen that cause autism. To assume a child gets the shot and then BOOM they're autistic and thats the only cause is another fallacy that needlessly puts others at risk.

I did not mean to offend tinman, I apologize if I did offend. I am sorry for his daughter's illness and the negative impacts it has on their lives.

However I am offended by the people who spread this kind of propaganda that makes it seem like vaccines are the only cause of mental disorders. Maybe instead we can look into water purity and BPA in bottles. How about all of the processed food we eat??? There are plenty of other substances known to be toxic during pregnancy. Plenty of other causes to look into, we should consider those as well. However its easy to villify a shot despite the amount of good it has done.

Read up on the disease, look at rates of the disease before and after the vaccine. Look at the fatality rate. then decide if vaccines need to be villified in the manner in which they have.
 
Old 12-24-2010, 12:06 PM
 
Location: Spokane via Sydney,Australia
6,611 posts, read 10,963,987 times
Reputation: 3083
Looks like this thread needs to be moved elsewhere..........it seems to have become about the pros and cons of vaccination rather than the original OP.
 
Old 12-24-2010, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Maryland
15,179 posts, read 15,828,771 times
Reputation: 3028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Autism and vaccines have nothing to do with each other. Having an autistic child does not give someone the right to lobby against effective public health measures nor to call for the abolishment of vaccines that protect all of us -- including the autistic -- from dangerous and contagious diseases.

I'm sorry that a small minority of parents have mistakenly latched on to a bad thesis. But that does not give them license to demand that the rest of us pretend vaccines are the cause of their children's problems. Or to spread poor information without being called on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by odinloki1 View Post
I do not have an intention to offend. However what if there's someone who is reading this who had a child that died of a vaccine preventable disease? How would they respond to someone campaigning against vaccinations? I'm sure they would wish their child was around with the possibility of autism vs. reality. There's two sides to every coin and in reality vaccinations are better than the alternative.

To read what many people write about vaccines is to assume that getting an MMR causes autism. first of all, the doctor that first published the report on an MMR causing autism fixed data.

MMR doctor Andrew Wakefield fixed data on autism - Times Online

Doc Who Tied Vaccine to Autism Ruled Unethical - TIME

A small portion from the article from February 2009:

Last week official figures showed that 1,348 confirmed cases of measles in England and Wales were reported last year, compared with 56 in 1998. Two children have died of the disease.

Next we don't know the causes of autism.

Autism Society of America: What Causes Autism (http://www.autism-society.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_whatcauses - broken link)

Theres plenty of other things that may happen that cause autism. To assume a child gets the shot and then BOOM they're autistic and thats the only cause is another fallacy that needlessly puts others at risk.

I did not mean to offend tinman, I apologize if I did offend. I am sorry for his daughter's illness and the negative impacts it has on their lives.

However I am offended by the people who spread this kind of propaganda that makes it seem like vaccines are the only cause of mental disorders. Maybe instead we can look into water purity and BPA in bottles. How about all of the processed food we eat??? There are plenty of other substances known to be toxic during pregnancy. Plenty of other causes to look into, we should consider those as well. However its easy to villify a shot despite the amount of good it has done.

Read up on the disease, look at rates of the disease before and after the vaccine. Look at the fatality rate. then decide if vaccines need to be villified in the manner in which they have.
My comments were not intended to indict those who support or oppose the notion of autism as a complication of vaccines. Rather, to suggest that while discussing this topic, we should try to be mindful of the feelings of parents of autistic children, who believe their childís condition resulted from vaccines. I do not profess to be an authority on the subject. Therefore, I can only offer my opinion, which I did in my initial post on this thread.

However, as a mother, I realize oneís child is a very sensitive subject, particularly, a child with medical problems. None of us can realize the heartache, unless we have firsthand experience, and I am very thankful I donít.

It isnít an issue of presenting facts. Facts should be provided and discussed. At issue, at least for me, is ďhowĒ the topic is discussed. Bear in mind, many parents are quilt-ridden over this issue. I just donít believe itís necessary to make them feel worse than they already do. In my opinion, itís simply a matter of empathy and consideration.
 
Old 12-24-2010, 12:33 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,388,658 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benicar View Post
My comments were not intended to indict those who support or oppose the notion of autism as a complication of vaccines. Rather, to suggest that while discussing this topic, we should try to be mindful of the feelings of parents of autistic children, who believe their childís condition resulted from vaccines. I do not profess to be an authority on the subject. Therefore, I can only offer my opinion, which I did in my initial post on this thread.

However, as a mother, I realize oneís child is a very sensitive subject, particularly, a child with medical problems. None of us can realize the heartache, unless we have firsthand experience, and I am very thankful I donít.

It isnít an issue of presenting facts. Facts should be provided and discussed. At issue, at least for me, is ďhowĒ the topic is discussed. Bear in mind, many parents are quilt-ridden over this issue. I just donít believe itís necessary to make them feel worse than they already do. In my opinion, itís simply a matter of empathy and consideration.
I'm sorry Benicar but I refuse to respect someone's feelings on this issue anymore than I respect someone who mistakenly believes that illegal migrants deserve equal rights with American citizens.

Parents who mistakenly believe that child's condition results from vaccines rather than genetics or relabeled learning disabilities are wrong. Worse, their beliefs pose a huge threat to the rest of us. Millions of Americans cannot can vaccinated. They may be too young for the vaccine to work effectively, have an underlying medical condition that makes vaccination unadvisable or have a history of vaccine reactions in their family. They are at huge risk from vaccine preventable diseases should non-vaccination become widespread.

When someone willfully choses not to vaccinate a healthy child that should be vaccinated that action poses a direct threat to all of us. A fetus could easily wind up blind and deaf from rubella. A young baby could wind up with brain damage from whooping cough. An chemo patient may needlessly catch measles from unvaccinated children. An elderly woman may succumb to the flu.

Non-vaccination is not a minor matter nor should be treated with kid gloves merely because someone has a child who would have been called learning disabled a mere generation ago. Demanding that people respect the choice to lobby against public health measures is not a demand I will agree to under any circumstances.
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