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Old 05-22-2012, 12:55 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,554,476 times
Reputation: 2360

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
What demands are you talking about, exactly? Like, I don't think that anyone should be legally required to speak a given language to work or hang out with friends drinking beer or go to a Yankees game, no matter what the language is and what the country is.
You think foreign speaking people don't need to learn to speak English in a country where English is the first language? I get they don't need to learn English as interpreters are provided in every sector of government and medical facilities, because that's the only exposure they have to American culture - welfare and free medical is part of their culture. Granted one dosen't need to speak English when hanging out and drinking beer.

Sending a child off to school for a few hours to learn English is not an investment in your child's future when that child goes home and reverts to the Spanish speaking environment, which probably includes watching cartoons and soap operas in Spanish. The only investment I see is the one where they send money home to "support" their family, or to build a house, or to fund another another illegal to pay the mule that brings them across.

Years ago immigrants came to the US knowing that English was a necessary ticket to the future. It was part of assimilating to American "culture" and a requirement if they wanted to work. Their children attended school where there was no help transitioning from their native language to English. The children taught their parents English. It was important that their children learned to speak English because it would advance their future in this country (part of the American Dream). How do you think this country developed? All of us had a family member who migrated to the US and they themselves or their children had no choice but to learn English in order to assimilate into American culture, and this is how we got to where we are today. Parents then played a critical role in their childrens lives for them to succeed.

I watched a piece on TV about illegals who graduated from college (the name of the college wasn't mentioned) and of course it had to do with the Dream Act. It was also highlighted that there are approximately 16,000 illegal students enrolled in US colleges. So from all the millions of illegals in the US, only 16,000 are pursuing higher education? I give them credit because they are the very few out of millions that are making the effort to become part of American society as we, Americans, know it. How many graduate high school? How many drop out of high school? In today's world a college degree is almost necessary to succeed.

How do you become part of a society where English is the first language when you cannot communicate? How do you succeed and make a better life if you live in the shadows and outside society? Society isn't alienating them, they alienate themselves. Foreigners do migrate to their own communities but many also live, work, socialize outside their community. I knew some Russians that lived in a very tight Russian community, but were very much a part of American society outside their community - spoke English, are businessmen/working people, who socialized with people who didn't speak their language.

I don't care if people, in this case Hispanic, don't want to learn English and better themselves. Let them stay on the bottom of the food chain. Just stop making demands that Americans should learn Spanish to accommodate them - that it would make it convenient for them for Americans to learn Spanish. It is not a requirement that Americans accommodate foreign speaking people. Never in history has any immigrant group demanded that English speaking Americans learn "their" language because they knew what country they were in, it was their responsibility to do what was necessary to assimilate, and didn't expect Americans or the government to accommodate or sustain them.

 
Old 05-22-2012, 02:37 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,554,476 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by vamos View Post
We would need a law declaring English the official language in order to for that to be so. Since we do not have such a law, there is no official language...

Think of it this way: We all know murder is wrong. However, without a law declaring murder illegal, there would be no official repercussions - even if lynching were a commonly accepted way of dealing with murderers.

It's really not that difficult of a concept.
True, there is no LAW declaring English as the official language. Obviously our forefathers didn't have the foresight to see how America could change and they just assumed that English would be the language everyone would use to communicate. Silly them.
 
Old 05-22-2012, 03:41 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,554,476 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
Yeah it's not feelings when you say "most of them aren't learning English." That's an actual data point that I know you can't support.
Trying to "verbally" debunk everything people say that don't agree with you, or basically telling them they are liars and don't know what they are talking about why don't you put up links to support your own claims showing how they are wrong.

I found this very interesting link (note it is a gov link, not some Mickey Mouse link) that explains the problems that hispanic children have learning English and why. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the problems stem from the parents and their living environment. Mexicans are highlighted in the paper. The article also refers to hispanic parents who have less than a 9th grade education. The majority of Mexican illegals have less than that (4th/5th grade Mexican education?). Many of the illegal parents are illiterate and can't speak/write their own language property.

Barriers to Educational Opportunities for Hispanics in the United States - Hispanics and the Future of America - NCBI Bookshelf

Quote:
When examined by country of origin, educational attainment for Hispanics varies. As shown in Figure 6-1, Mexican Americans, who are the largest and fastest growing Hispanic subgroup in the United States, have the lowest rates of educational attainment compared with other groups
Note the reference iMexican Americans, which more than likely account for being the anchor babies. If Mexicans are so savvy as to how to get government benefits and screw the government/taxpayers, why don't they utilize the Head Start program? If Hispanics truly want to help their children, why don't they themselves enroll in English classes? I don't think Spanish is going to become the first language of the US anytime in the near (or distant) future, so why don't Hispanics just cave in and go the course, rather than demand US citizens to cave in and accommodate them? It's not to say those efforts would fix the problem, but it is a source for their children to get better exposure in many ways, including learning English, or would that take too much effort for them as parents who have an interest in their child(ren)s future? It seems to me that their children serve the parents interest for no other purpose than being a government check and a means to stay in the US illegally to make money to send back home (because the US certainly isn't their home).
 
Old 05-22-2012, 07:54 AM
 
20,611 posts, read 12,298,901 times
Reputation: 5895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockmadinejad View Post
What demands are you talking about, exactly? Like, I don't think that anyone should be legally required to speak a given language to work or hang out with friends drinking beer or go to a Yankees game, no matter what the language is and what the country is.
Ok; then those people who WON'T learn English should expect to be shunned by anglo society. Not my problem, this is the US, not Mexico.
 
Old 05-22-2012, 09:09 AM
 
24 posts, read 16,880 times
Reputation: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
Ok; then those people who WON'T learn English should expect to be shunned by anglo society. Not my problem, this is the US, not Mexico.

Like that's going to happen. It's about money and green talks. "I'm sorry I can't sell you this Mercedez because you don't speak English" yea right!!!!

Have you seen the commerical where the Chinese couple is speaking in Chinese and the sell's man talks to them in Chinese.
 
Old 05-22-2012, 09:15 AM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,300,095 times
Reputation: 6451
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
Trying to "verbally" debunk everything people say that don't agree with you, or basically telling them they are liars and don't know what they are talking about why don't you put up links to support your own claims showing how they are wrong.

I found this very interesting link (note it is a gov link, not some Mickey Mouse link) that explains the problems that hispanic children have learning English and why. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the problems stem from the parents and their living environment. Mexicans are highlighted in the paper. The article also refers to hispanic parents who have less than a 9th grade education. The majority of Mexican illegals have less than that (4th/5th grade Mexican education?). Many of the illegal parents are illiterate and can't speak/write their own language property.

Barriers to Educational Opportunities for Hispanics in the United States - Hispanics and the Future of America - NCBI Bookshelf



Note the reference iMexican Americans, which more than likely account for being the anchor babies. If Mexicans are so savvy as to how to get government benefits and screw the government/taxpayers, why don't they utilize the Head Start program? If Hispanics truly want to help their children, why don't they themselves enroll in English classes? I don't think Spanish is going to become the first language of the US anytime in the near (or distant) future, so why don't Hispanics just cave in and go the course, rather than demand US citizens to cave in and accommodate them? It's not to say those efforts would fix the problem, but it is a source for their children to get better exposure in many ways, including learning English, or would that take too much effort for them as parents who have an interest in their child(ren)s future? It seems to me that their children serve the parents interest for no other purpose than being a government check and a means to stay in the US illegally to make money to send back home (because the US certainly isn't their home).

Thank you for not having a Mickey Mouse post on this subject, with very good Data to back up what you say. Not Mickey Mouse.
So much of these children learning, has to do with the Parents first and foremost.
It does seem that some of these children, only serve the needs of their parents, sad really.
When i know of a hispanic family that has been in our Country for more then 20 years, and they don't speak english, what does this tell you!
 
Old 05-22-2012, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,014,921 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
You think foreign speaking people don't need to learn to speak English in a country where English is the first language? I get they don't need to learn English as interpreters are provided in every sector of government and medical facilities, because that's the only exposure they have to American culture - welfare and free medical is part of their culture. Granted one dosen't need to speak English when hanging out and drinking beer...
I would argue that "welfare" is an identifier for American culture; There's not any such national programs like it in the countries where I think the bent on immigration is focused here. "Free medical" is more undefined, and could apply to several countries where it isn't phrased in a negative connotation.

"Hanging out and having a beer" actually strikes me as a bit ironic for the culture you are part of currently...

Quote:
...Sending a child off to school for a few hours to learn English is not an investment in your child's future when that child goes home and reverts to the Spanish speaking environment, which probably includes watching cartoons and soap operas in Spanish...
...Or a probability of being in English. Novellas viewers are not likely to be schoolkids. I say schoolkids, because this wandering topic started out (in P&OC) as ESL programs at schools.

Quote:
...Years ago immigrants came to the US knowing that English was a necessary ticket to the future. It was part of assimilating to American "culture" and a requirement if they wanted to work. Their children attended school where there was no help transitioning from their native language to English. The children taught their parents English. It was important that their children learned to speak English because it would advance their future in this country (part of the American Dream). How do you think this country developed? All of us had a family member who migrated to the US and they themselves or their children had no choice but to learn English in order to assimilate into American culture, and this is how we got to where we are today. Parents then played a critical role in their childrens lives for them to succeed.

I watched a piece on TV about illegals who graduated from college (the name of the college wasn't mentioned) and of course it had to do with the Dream Act. It was also highlighted that there are approximately 16,000 illegal students enrolled in US colleges. So from all the millions of illegals in the US, only 16,000 are pursuing higher education? I give them credit because they are the very few out of millions that are making the effort to become part of American society as we, Americans, know it. How many graduate high school? How many drop out of high school? In today's world a college degree is almost necessary to succeed.

How do you become part of a society where English is the first language when you cannot communicate? How do you succeed and make a better life if you live in the shadows and outside society? Society isn't alienating them, they alienate themselves. Foreigners do migrate to their own communities but many also live, work, socialize outside their community. I knew some Russians that lived in a very tight Russian community, but were very much a part of American society outside their community - spoke English, are businessmen/working people, who socialized with people who didn't speak their language.

I don't care if people, in this case Hispanic, don't want to learn English and better themselves. Let them stay on the bottom of the food chain. Just stop making demands that Americans should learn Spanish to accommodate them - that it would make it convenient for them for Americans to learn Spanish. It is not a requirement that Americans accommodate foreign speaking people. Never in history has any immigrant group demanded that English speaking Americans learn "their" language because they knew what country they were in, it was their responsibility to do what was necessary to assimilate, and didn't expect Americans or the government to accommodate or sustain them.
Highlighting another reason to keep this topic focused on ESL within the public school systems, because otherwise we will have these comments that are pure fiction on how immigrant ancestors adapted to English immediately...
 
Old 05-22-2012, 10:02 AM
 
Location: OK
2,717 posts, read 6,295,380 times
Reputation: 1844
Quote:
Originally Posted by pandg20 View Post
The problem is we teach them English and then they go home and speak to their children in Spanish and then we have to teach their children English and then they grow up and speak to their children in Spanish and the cycle repeats itself over and over and over and our tax dollars go out the window over and over. If these people would speak English at home it would stop right there but they don't, they won't. I know a woman who has been in the country for over 35 years, she can speak English but chooses not to. All three of her children had to take English as a second language and she still needs a interpreter. Well all three of those kids are now having kids and guess what they to will have to take English as a second language too! What a waste!! My family came from Germany. That's right they spoke German until they came here and then they spoke English and that was the end of it. How come Spanish speaking people get special treatment compared to the rest of us? Teach the parents and then leave it at that, make the parents responsible for teaching their kids English and put a stop to this cycle or it will not end!! Not a benifit if they just keep speaking their language at home and not teaching their children, its a waste.
I haven't read the whole thread but this struck a cord. I am an immigrant and English is one of my second languages. I consider my mother tongue my primary language. I speak both. I do not speak English with my family because that is just weird. However, everybody speaks English in the outside world.

I don't see anything wrong with speaking your own language at home, which in my case is Dutch.
 
Old 05-22-2012, 10:02 AM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,387,276 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Highlighting another reason to keep this topic focused on ESL within the public school systems, because otherwise we will have these comments that are pure fiction on how immigrant ancestors adapted to English immediately...
Ultimately it does not matter what our immigrant ancestors did or did not do. We have every right now to demand demonstrated English as a condition for acquisition of American citizenship.

I am extremely irritated that people like yourself seem to think otherwise. I swear to god if a group of Americans moved to Mexico and steadfastly refused to learn Spanish we'd hear all sorts of contempt for their laziness and arrogance. It's not okay the other way around.

Immigration is not just an endless array of rights that the would-be resident has the right to demand from Americans. It's also about responsibilities as well. Part of that responsibility should mean you learn fluent English. If this is too hard for you don't come here.
 
Old 05-22-2012, 10:38 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,156,932 times
Reputation: 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annemieke Roell View Post
I haven't read the whole thread but this struck a cord. I am an immigrant and English is one of my second languages. I consider my mother tongue my primary language. I speak both. I do not speak English with my family because that is just weird. However, everybody speaks English in the outside world.

I don't see anything wrong with speaking your own language at home, which in my case is Dutch.
Nor do I. You are a prime example of what immigrant assimilation is all about out in mainstream America. Thank you.
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