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Old 05-22-2012, 10:40 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
Reputation: 2130

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Ultimately it does not matter what our immigrant ancestors did or did not do. We have every right now to demand demonstrated English as a condition for acquisition of American citizenship.

I am extremely irritated that people like yourself seem to think otherwise. I swear to god if a group of Americans moved to Mexico and steadfastly refused to learn Spanish we'd hear all sorts of contempt for their laziness and arrogance. It's not okay the other way around.

Immigration is not just an endless array of rights that the would-be resident has the right to demand from Americans. It's also about responsibilities as well. Part of that responsibility should mean you learn fluent English. If this is too hard for you don't come here.
Just learning English isn't enough though. Speaking it out in mainstream America is what true assimilation is all about.

 
Old 05-22-2012, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,552,655 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
[IBMMuseum;24410184]I would argue that "welfare" is an identifier for American culture; There's not any such national programs like it in the countries where I think the bent on immigration is focused here. "Free medical" is more undefined, and could apply to several countries where it isn't phrased in a negative connotation.
Errrr, we are talking about the United States of America. When one doesn't have to pay for something, it's free to them, but in reality it isn't free because someone, somewhere is working and paying taxes to provide that "free" service. I really don't give a rats arse what goes on in other countries. Developed countries are suffering from the number of immigrants who have been added onto the welfare roles and survive on welfare benefits. Do you know anything about the UK? If welfare is how America is identified I guess we have all the illegals to thank for that.

Quote:
"Hanging out and having a beer" actually strikes me as a bit ironic for the culture you are part of currently...
You might want to scroll up and see that the reference to "hanging out and having a beer" was made by another poster - a poster who is pro-illegal. What culture am I part of currently? You know how I live? FYI, when I hang out I drink fine wine.

Quote:
...Or a probability of being in English. Novellas viewers are not likely to be schoolkids. I say schoolkids, because this wandering topic started out (in P&OC) as ESL programs at schools.
The title of the thread is "English as a Second Language". They may not be watching novellas, but it's the language in the background. If it's not spanish television shows, it's spanish music or the language spoken in the home (spanish).

Quote:
Highlighting another reason to keep this topic focused on ESL within the public school systems, because otherwise we will have these comments that are pure fiction on how immigrant ancestors adapted to English immediately...
Sure, blame the public schools for not doing enough.

Pure fiction? Did you actually read the paper attached to the link I provided? or did you just decide to make a contribution that came off the top of you head?

No one made the claim that immigrant ancestors adopted to English immediately. What was pointed out was that they didn't have a CHOICE when it came to learning English, especially if they wanted to survive because there were no government handouts. It was sink or swim for them.

This just goes to show that you don't read what is written or links provided, or, your thoughts get ahead of you and you lose focus on the content.

Move along Mickey.
 
Old 05-22-2012, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,552,655 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annemieke Roell View Post
I haven't read the whole thread but this struck a cord. I am an immigrant and English is one of my second languages. I consider my mother tongue my primary language. I speak both. I do not speak English with my family because that is just weird. However, everybody speaks English in the outside world.

I don't see anything wrong with speaking your own language at home, which in my case is Dutch.
You should have read all the posts in the thread and you would find out that your post really isn't relevant.

There are many nationalities that speak two languages in the home; their mother tongue and English as a second language. I know many Italians where English is their mother tongue and Italian their second language. This turn in language took place over time through family generations.
 
Old 05-22-2012, 11:20 AM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,293,898 times
Reputation: 6451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Ultimately it does not matter what our immigrant ancestors did or did not do. We have every right now to demand demonstrated English as a condition for acquisition of American citizenship.

I am extremely irritated that people like yourself seem to think otherwise. I swear to god if a group of Americans moved to Mexico and steadfastly refused to learn Spanish we'd hear all sorts of contempt for their laziness and arrogance. It's not okay the other way around.

Immigration is not just an endless array of rights that the would-be resident has the right to demand from Americans. It's also about responsibilities as well. Part of that responsibility should mean you learn fluent English. If this is too hard for you don't come here.

Very well said, and yes i agree with you too, when someone is right they are right!
 
Old 05-22-2012, 11:28 AM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,293,898 times
Reputation: 6451
Quote:
Originally Posted by softblueyz View Post
You should have read all the posts in the thread and you would find out that your post really isn't relevant.

There are many nationalities that speak two languages in the home; their mother tongue and English as a second language. I know many Italians where English is their mother tongue and Italian their second language. This turn in language took place over time through family generations.




Your right about that. One of the first things i learned about my Ancestors becoming American Citizens from Italy. Was that the first thing on their agenda was to learn English. Which was not easy, but by golly they learned english and learned it well. With a broken Italian accent, but none the less learned the language of their new Country.
As well as other people i know of different nationalities, they told me the same thing, when there ancestors came here from other Countries, they too learned english.

And they made no demands what so ever from anyone, it was all about hard work and being an American Citizen.

My grandparents spoke both Italian and english in the home, mostly english to the children. Which was why i had to teach myself online how to speak Italian. If i can learn a language myself from online, anyone can learn english.

Buona Giornata! ci vediamo!

Last edited by california-jewel; 05-22-2012 at 11:39 AM..
 
Old 05-22-2012, 11:46 AM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,293,898 times
Reputation: 6451
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
I would argue that "welfare" is an identifier for American culture; There's not any such national programs like it in the countries where I think the bent on immigration is focused here. "Free medical" is more undefined, and could apply to several countries where it isn't phrased in a negative connotation.

"Hanging out and having a beer" actually strikes me as a bit ironic for the culture you are part of currently...



...Or a probability of being in English. Novellas viewers are not likely to be schoolkids. I say schoolkids, because this wandering topic started out (in P&OC) as ESL programs at schools.



Highlighting another reason to keep this topic focused on ESL within the public school systems, because otherwise we will have these comments that are pure fiction on how immigrant ancestors adapted to English immediately...


Your the one saying they learned english easy, they went thru hell and ice water to learn the langage of their new Country. By gosh dang it, they stuck with it and learned the language. In order to fit in, and to work, makes sense to me! And it did not matter to them how long it was going to take, however long that time was, to them was well worth it!
The thing is maybe it was not easy learning english, but they deserve credit every last one of them for learning english. And not expecting anything from anyone, but themselves. And hard work. That i respect!
To not learn the language of the Country you live in, is nothing but being pure lazy! don't care what you think.

fa niente!

Last edited by california-jewel; 05-22-2012 at 12:22 PM..
 
Old 05-22-2012, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Ultimately it does not matter what our immigrant ancestors did or did not do. We have every right now to demand demonstrated English as a condition for acquisition of American citizenship...
[which is ultimately a call for this topic to go back to P&OC: An illegal alien cannot become a U.S. citizen except through the intermediate step of Legal Residency]

Encompassing all "acquisition of [U.S.] citizenship", the vast majority do not know English, and it is some years before they start to pick it up: It is by birth (jus soli). Birth by U.S. citizens abroad (jus sanguinis) or in the U.S. territory of Puerto Rico (jus soli) also may not have exposure to English for even longer. The specific area I think you are trying to address, the naturalization to U.S. citizenship, already has that checkpoint in place, however, any derivative U.S. citizenship (a minor child of someone that is naturalizing) is not examined for English usage.

An immigrant is also not required to naturalize, they can live out the rest of their lives without necessarily attaining U.S. citizenship...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
...I am extremely irritated that people like yourself seem to think otherwise. I swear to god if a group of Americans moved to Mexico and steadfastly refused to learn Spanish we'd hear all sorts of contempt for their laziness and arrogance. It's not okay the other way around...
There are whole American enclaves in some areas of Mexico (in addition to ethnically Amish communities that are Mexican citizens, but primarily use the German language, and some of the indigenous population that do not know Spanish), English language radio stations, and by what I have seen, there really isn't any big deal made about it there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
...Immigration is not just an endless array of rights that the would-be resident has the right to demand from Americans. It's also about responsibilities as well. Part of that responsibility should mean you learn fluent English. If this is too hard for you don't come here.
Referencing English usage purely from a view of naturalization (which is three years minimum as a Legal Permanent Resident if married to the same U.S. citizen during those years, or five years if not), but then rewinding to an earlier time ("...then don't come here") is discordant. The removal of ESL programs makes the process of integration into our society harder. We're back once again at this never-ending theme of circular logic.
 
Old 05-22-2012, 12:58 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,012,769 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by california-jewel View Post
Your the one saying they learned english easy, they went thru hell and ice water to learn the langage of their new Country. By gosh dang it, they stuck with it and learned the language. In order to fit it, and to work, makes sense to me!
The thing is maybe it was not easy learning english, but they deserve credit every last one of them for learning english. And not expecting anything from anyone, but themselves. And hard work. That i respect!
To not learn the language of the Country you live in, is nothing but being pure lazy! don't care what you think.

fa niente!
Correct, beforehand I saw a practical need to buy several English-Spanish picturebooks for the kids, enrolled them in a supplementary private school that taught in English ("Harlen Hall", which has locations in most major cities through Mexico), and quizzed them every opportunity I had. There is a community-run (non-profit, under a literacy program for kids at our public library) English class that my wife took after arriving here too (scoring the highest out of the several students with her). Probably the biggest help for her (with the kids, it was just mixing in with their peers in school) after she arrived (and waited to be work-authorized) was being in employment that interacted heavily with the American public.

My wife and I actually had a discussion regarding this very topic about a month ago. She stated that it was imperative that anyone living in the United States should be trying to gain a functional ability in the English language. What I am arguing here is against the viewpoint English is required in order to be a U.S. citizen, and an irrational response to close ESL programs.
 
Old 05-22-2012, 01:19 PM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,152,437 times
Reputation: 2130
I thought we were discussing how illegal alien non-English speaking students were impacting our schools and/or the offspring of illegal aliens born on our soil doing likewise? That discussion would belong in this forum, would it not?
 
Old 05-22-2012, 01:37 PM
 
Location: OCEAN BREEZES AND VIEWS SAN CLEMENTE
19,899 posts, read 15,293,898 times
Reputation: 6451
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Correct, beforehand I saw a practical need to buy several English-Spanish picturebooks for the kids, enrolled them in a supplementary private school that taught in English ("Harlen Hall", which has locations in most major cities through Mexico), and quizzed them every opportunity I had. There is a community-run (non-profit, under a literacy program for kids at our public library) English class that my wife took after arriving here too (scoring the highest out of the several students with her). Probably the biggest help for her (with the kids, it was just mixing in with their peers in school) after she arrived (and waited to be work-authorized) was being in employment that interacted heavily with the American public.

My wife and I actually had a discussion regarding this very topic about a month ago. She stated that it was imperative that anyone living in the United States should be trying to gain a functional ability in the English language. What I am arguing here is against the viewpoint English is required in order to be a U.S. citizen, and an irrational response to close ESL programs.
Go to e-how.com, as i did a couple of weeks ago. I wanted to know more on this subject. It did state in order to become a US ctizien, one must understand how to read and write basic english, and to speak basic english. It has more information that is very informative, read it, tell me what you think.
It had it all laid out for you, and made it easy to understand the steps in undertaking before becomeing a citizen.
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