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Old 05-22-2012, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Chicago area
1,105 posts, read 2,759,682 times
Reputation: 2098

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
Many is this forum would like to change that to allow those who brazenly broke our immigration laws to be rewarded for it. There are constant calls not only for amnesty...
No, nobody is trying to change the fact that a green card is needed before becoming eligible for citizenship. That argument has never been made and that's not what amnesty would mean at all.

Quote:
...for all sorts of bennies for illegals including free college tuition
Who has argued for free college tuition for illegals? Where is that argument constantly made? I've never heard it. Not even American kids get that.

Quote:
There's no evidence whatosever for this point of view.
Really? There is no evidence that teaching immigrants the language of their adopted country helps them integrate? That's ludicrous. Learning the language is the most important thing in regards to integration and formal classes is the best way to teach a language. ESL is not really intended to illegal immigrants anyway. It's intended for legal immigrants who are new to the country. Most of the services you are talking about are actually provided to legal immigrants.

Quote:
I have no idea why you expect Americans to agree to pay extra taxes, learn another language and change their lives simply to make life easier for people who have voluntarily chosen to move here.
What are you talking about? Nobody is required to learn another language or change their lives to make it easier for immigrants. Where do you get that from? Have you been required to learn a foreign language because of immigrants?
As far as taxes go most, if not all, countries have a budget for immigration and all western countries have services for immigrants. There are many Americans abroad taking full advantage of tax payer funded services in other countries. And many make little to no effort to learn the language. All of Europe speak English so American immigrants can get by without learning the language and many do just that.
My aunt moved to Sweden in the late 80's and she still speaks very poor Swedish despite having taken classes provided for free by Swedish tax payers. After divorcing her husband she also got housing aid and child aid from the government because of the reduced household income. She's far from alone. Sweden actually has a fairly large American community and just like the Mexicans here they stick together. Immigrants everywhere are surprisingly similar regardless of where they are from. Americans are by no means superior from any other people.

 
Old 05-22-2012, 09:46 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,398,149 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by IBMMuseum View Post
Well, yeah, I was just stating an obvious point that it never is illegal aliens attaining U.S. citizenship...
That's not true. Reagan offered them amnesty with the agreement that our immigration laws would be enforced. But the Reps love cheap and docile labor too much and the Dems pander shamelessly to the hispanic vote so the ordinary American gets to pay the price for this idiocy.

Quote:
The comment at hand was about language usage within a country, I'm not really feeling this is following the form of a conventional debate....
The debate is about if people should be required to learn English to get American citizenship. As that's what most illegals want this debate is certainly relevant.

Quote:
Your taxes are also going to whatever war(s) we may be involved in, road projects that you will never drive on, and whichever way they are broken up otherwise to subsidize anything in our society...
So? That's the price we pay for a federal system. But part of the price should not include subsiziding the economic dreams of Latin America's least able citizens.

The road projects and wars have been voted on by the American people. The same is true of our immigration laws. Why should illegals have the right to ignore the will of the American people and simply ignore them?

Quote:
If you get close to individualized control of what you pay into the system, let us know (in the appropriate forum area), I'm not traveling that path with you...
My local property taxes should not include translating all school documents into Spanish, offering preschool for Mexican nationals who don't speak English and providing ESL services that don't work rather than bilingual education that does.

Or do you simply think that Americans should be forced to surrender control over those as well?

 
Old 05-22-2012, 10:16 PM
 
3,493 posts, read 2,398,149 times
Reputation: 2345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizita View Post
No, nobody is trying to change the fact that a green card is needed before becoming eligible for citizenship. That argument has never been made and that's not what amnesty would mean at all.
Many illegal advocates have repeatedly argued that literally nothing should be required of illegals. They say they do but if you look at their voting records and advocacy you'll see them repeatedly voting for ideas such as providing interpreters at public expense that literally do nothing to penalize those who have broken our immigration laws.

At most they suggest a small fine. But that's usually about it.

Quote:
Who has argued for free college tuition for illegals? Where is that argument constantly made? I've never heard it. Not even American kids get that.
You really should familiarize yourself with this subject before commenting on it.



California is billions in debt.

Yet they authorized 14 million in state subsizided tuition for known law breakers:
Undocumented Immigrants In California Will Soon Receive Financial Aid

The law is meant to give undocumented students a chance at aid if they are already on the path to become U.S. citizens and according to projections 2,500 students will receive the Cal Grants which are worth $14.5 million.

The so called "dream act" is really also largely about providing illegals with not only citizenship but access to free college tuition as most illegals come from families that have almost no skills and therefore can barely command any decent wages in the marketplace.

Quote:
Really? There is no evidence that teaching immigrants the language of their adopted country helps them integrate? That's ludicrous. Learning the language is the most important thing in regards to integration and formal classes is the best way to teach a language. ESL is not really intended to illegal immigrants anyway. It's intended for legal immigrants who are new to the country. Most of the services you are talking about are actually provided to legal immigrants.
For a year perhaps. Beyond that, no. Children are very capable of learning a language if you provide them with enough exposure to it. Unfortunately many ESL classes place far more emphasis on utterly irrelevant ideas such as cultural identity and not enough on making sure the kid actually manages high school level English fluency.

Again you really should research this subject. ESL classes are part of the reason hispanic high school drop out rates are so high as many simply do not have the skills to pass the necessary English language requirements necessary to graduate from high school.

FYI, on a personal note I was sent to a Hebrew school in grade school. I had no background in the subject and was only given minimal assistance. Within two years I was fluent in Hebrew. So I know exactly whereof I write.

Quote:
What are you talking about? Nobody is required to learn another language or change their lives to make it easier for immigrants. Where do you get that from? Have you been required to learn a foreign language because of immigrants?
I've quite a few job listings literally requiring people to be bilingual in Spanish and English. These job listings were not for people traveling abroad to work in a foreign country. They were to cater to the needs of people obviously too lazy to bother to learn English.

I also periodically run into the occasional person who indicates they don't speak English yet obviously lives here such as someone employed locally or waiting for a bus.

Quote:
As far as taxes go most, if not all, countries have a budget for immigration and all western countries have services for immigrants. There are many Americans abroad taking full advantage of tax payer funded services in other countries. And many make little to no effort to learn the language. All of Europe speak English so American immigrants can get by without learning the language and many do just that.
So?

Two wrongs make a right?

Do you really literally think that I should have to subsidize someone's decision to immigrate here?



That's ridiculous. What about internal migration? If I can't afford a Manhattan apartment should YOU have to pay more taxes so I can?

No one should be entitled to move here and lay claim to our tax dollars if they can't afford to stay. If my grandparents couldn't make it here, they left. I see no reason why modern day immigrants shouldn't be told to do the same.

FYI, many European countries are seeking to drastically reduce services provided to immigrants as they fed up with people who contribute nothing yet demand the right to take from the public till.

Quote:
My aunt moved to Sweden in the late 80's and she still speaks very poor Swedish despite having taken classes provided for free by Swedish tax payers. After divorcing her husband she also got housing aid and child aid from the government because of the reduced household income. She's far from alone. Sweden actually has a fairly large American community and just like the Mexicans here they stick together. Immigrants everywhere are surprisingly similar regardless of where they are from. Americans are by no means superior from any other people.
So? This isn't Sweden. We don't have a monarchy either. I don't care what your aunt did. Just because she can't be bothered to learn her country's language and feels the Swedes should subsidize her life does not mean Americans should do the same for every third grade dropout from Mexico.

I'm revolted you think my tax dollars should be used that way. Carlos Slim is both Mexican and the world's richest man. Let HIM subsized Mexico's peasants not me.
 
Old 05-22-2012, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Jacurutu
5,302 posts, read 4,031,386 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanora1 View Post
That's not true. Reagan offered them amnesty with the agreement that our immigration laws would be enforced. But the Reps love cheap and docile labor too much and the Dems pander shamelessly to the hispanic vote so the ordinary American gets to pay the price for this idiocy.

The debate is about if people should be required to learn English to get American citizenship. As that's what most illegals want this debate is certainly relevant.

So? That's the price we pay for a federal system. But part of the price should not include subsiziding the economic dreams of Latin America's least able citizens.

The road projects and wars have been voted on by the American people. The same is true of our immigration laws. Why should illegals have the right to ignore the will of the American people and simply ignore them?

My local property taxes should not include translating all school documents into Spanish, offering preschool for Mexican nationals who don't speak English and providing ESL services that don't work rather than bilingual education that does.

Or do you simply think that Americans should be forced to surrender control over those as well?

Eleanora, you're lost in your phrases without understanding what they mean...

Rational debate is just not possible with you...
 
Old 05-23-2012, 02:07 AM
 
Location: Too far from home.
8,743 posts, read 5,589,241 times
Reputation: 2360
Quote:
[Lizita;24420237]
Nobody is required to learn another language or change their lives to make it easier for immigrants. Where do you get that from? Have you been required to learn a foreign language because of immigrants?
Americans should learn Spanish is a "demand" being made by hispanics, usually illegals, and supporters of illegals, due to their belief that the Spanish language will eventually be as common in the US as is English.

Quote:
As far as taxes go most, if not all, countries have a budget for immigration and all western countries have services for immigrants.
The budget that is allocated is for legal immigrants, not illegals and not the children born of illegals. I highly doubt the government sets aside a budget for illegals, which would include those who obtain visas and overstay their visa to remain in the US illegally. There are requirements that legal immigrants must meet in order to be obtain residence in the US. The majority of those that legally immigrate to the US have a very different agenda than that of illegals. Those who immigrant are generally educated, motivated people who live by the law, work and pay taxes, unlike illegals.

Quote:
There are many Americans abroad taking full advantage of tax payer funded services in other countries. And many make little to no effort to learn the language. All of Europe speak English so American immigrants can get by without learning the language and many do just that.
I'm an expat and I would be curious as to what taxpayer funded services are available in other countries. Safe to assume that these services could be obtained from the American Embassy/Consulate, but I've yet to see or hear about any. The official language where I am is Arabic and many Americans enroll in classes, at their own expense to learn, at the very least, basic Arabic.

Quote:
My aunt moved to Sweden in the late 80's and she still speaks very poor Swedish despite having taken classes provided for free by Swedish tax payers. After divorcing her husband she also got housing aid and child aid from the government because of the reduced household income. She's far from alone. Sweden actually has a fairly large American community and just like the Mexicans here they stick together. Immigrants everywhere are surprisingly similar regardless of where they are from. Americans are by no means superior from any other people.
Your aunt is a legal resident (citizen?) of Sweden. Do you think she would have gotten government benefits if she an illegal? If she was illegal and had a child, would that child be given automatic citizenship and by vitue of that child being born in Sweden, would that entitle your aunt remain in the country and receive benefits? As you say, every foreign country has its expat communities, but those communities don't consist of illegals. And the purpose of "communities" goes far beyond having a common language. Do you think if those American expats could not support themselves they could remain in the country and easily get government benefits?

As for English being spoken throughout Europe, many Europeans grow up bi-ligual and some, tri-lingual, English being one of the languages they speak. This is due to the fact that countries that do business internationally, and those countries that rely on tourism, being bi-lingual is a necessity as English is the common language spoken universally. People who work in the hospitality industry require staff to speak English due to the international clientele. For those travellers that don't speak English there is always someone who can interpret to assist them.

Example: to become a citizen of Austria it is mandatory to speak, write, read German in order to apply for citizenship. For a child to be given citizenship, one parent must be a citizen of Austria (and this is pretty universal, except for the US). Also, unlike the US, countries do not protect, fund, pander and coddle illegals, nor do they give illegals the same rights as its citizens. Add to that, with the exception of the US, countries don't grant amnesty to illegals - when they are caught they are immediately deported.
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