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Old 05-16-2012, 10:06 AM
 
14,307 posts, read 11,160,108 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mb1547 View Post
Some districts teach the kids in their own language and then provide supplemental English instruction, and others throw them into the classroom with a sink or swim immersion attitude--it's done both ways. Ours provides supplemental English instruction and special classes, with the thought that the child needs to continue to learn science, math, etc. to stay at grade level, even if they don't speak English. We have a number of ESL kids at our school, and by the time their first year is out, most of them are fluent in English just from interacting with other kids. The ESL kids we have here are both Spanish and Vietnamese speaking. The Valedictorian of my oldest son's graduating class this spring is HISPANIC and is a graduate of the ESL program here. It think there are tons of myths and urban legends on this issue, and not a lot of people dealing in facts.
And just why don't these Hispanic students already know English when they enter school? Couldn't be because most of their parents are here illegally and therefore have only been taught Spanish in the home, would it? It sickens me to think of the tax dollars we are spending on ESL classes and other costs of educating the kids of parents who are here illegally.

 
Old 05-16-2012, 10:09 AM
 
10,115 posts, read 6,737,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Then why would you move to another country as an adult? Would you insist that Americans should relocate to other countries when they cannot learn the languages of those countries or don't wish to make any effort?

Would you insist that millions of Americans should relocate to Japan or Germany and insist that everything be provided to them in English? Or maybe stay home if you cannot adapt or learn anything.

A motivated adult can learn another language in 3 to 6 months. We don't see other immigrants having the same difficulties, the Vietnamese for example do not require everything be handed to them in their language, Filippino immigrants do not require us to have their language as the first option in a telephone call.
Americans move to other countries too--people take corporate jobs or visiting professorships all the time. They take supplemental language instruction before they go and while they're there, just like ESL here. As far as 3-6 months goes--I don't think facts back that up. I was a foreign exchange student in High School, and most older kids and adults became reasonably fluent with total immersion and language instruction after about six months to a year. In three to six months you could speak basic sentences and get the general drift of what was going on, but it was tough to write with any clarity or complexity. We were told that going in, and that was the experience of most students. Most of the kids here who take ESL classes seem to have the same experience--they have no clue what's going on initially, but by the end of six months to a year they're speaking the language, even if they have more difficulty with written grammar, etc. It's no different.
 
Old 05-16-2012, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Murika
2,526 posts, read 2,505,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Wrong. ESL is about making English the second language, Spanish the first. In schools here, children are taught in their own country's language of Spanish and are given a little introduction to English on the side. They are not being taught that it's all that important to learn English.

English is now offered pretty much the same way Latin and Greek are -- it's nice to learn a second language.

English needs to be the First language, the primary language. If the immigrants want to live in a Spanish speaking nation, they should consider staying home or relocating to one of the 22 or so Spanish speaking nations.
Holy Cow - ESL stands for English as a second language. It is offered to people (not just immigrants) wishing to learn the English language while in a the USA - this includes foreign exchange students, foreign students, temporary employees for companies with subsidiaries in the US, etc.

It does NOT mean that English is considered the secondary language - for then, the program would be called English as a secondary language.

Additionally, immigrants come from all over the world - are you suggesting that they are having an ESL battle to see whose native language should replace English here in the US? Or do you just assume that ALL people who take ESL are hispanic?

Many colleges require non-native speakers to take ESL classes to ensure that their language skills are sufficient to take college-level classes. Foreign students are required to take an English language assessment test - the results of this test are used to place them in varying levels of ESL classes, depending on their individual proficiency.

How do I know this? I am an immigrant from a non-English speaking country. I had to take an ESL class during my freshman year in college - along with ALL other foreign students, whether they were from Japan, Germany, Italy, China, or any other country where English is not the native language.

As you can see, I am actually writing this in English! I know - it's shocking! Clearly, I was indoctrinated to believe that English needs to be abolished in the US so that it can be replaced with MY native language (which, by the way, is not Spanish).

Perhaps you need to take your blinders off for a second and realize that ESL is trying to accomplish EXACTLY what you want: That English remains the dominant language in the US!

The issue you are talking about occurs in areas where the dominant language is not English. I am aware of some schools within the L.A. Unified School District that decided that some classes needed to be taught in Spanish because none of the students had the ability to follow a class taught in English.

Personally, I think this is a wrong approach although I understand the reasoning behind it - which is along the lines of allocating tight resources to actually teaching the curriculum rather than to focus on teaching them English first.

I think it would be preferable to take the approach that colleges and universities take - assess proficiency and teach ESL concurrently unless proficiency is quite low. Alas, without the necessary funding, school districts are forced to make a choice - and they choose to teach the curriculum.

If you don't like that, perhaps you could fight for better funding of schools...

Last edited by vamos; 05-16-2012 at 10:24 AM..
 
Old 05-16-2012, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Moderate conservative for Obama.
833 posts, read 528,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pappy&Me View Post
PRESS ONE TO SPEAK ENGLISH !

I notice now we the tax payers are setting up classes for immigrants to use english as a second language .

What the hell is wrong with just english and unless your home shut the hell up .

Aanyone else tied of the nerve these foreigners have when they come here with all their needs and want us to change for them ?

Were'nt not asking You to change like you enforced the Natives to, idiot.
Like it or not, demographs will change soon and hey, you aint gonna be the majority no more, move with the times or shove yer a$$ to the kerb.
 
Old 05-16-2012, 10:14 AM
 
10,115 posts, read 6,737,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
And just why don't these Hispanic students already know English when they enter school? Couldn't be because most of their parents are here illegally and therefore have only been taught Spanish in the home, would it? It sickens me to think of the tax dollars we are spending on ESL classes and other costs of educating the kids of parents who are here illegally.
Oh good grief. If you and your family immigrate legally from ANY country, are you going to speak the new language at home or the language you grew up in? If I moved to China, I'd want my kids to be able to speak English, and I'd speak it to them at home so they learn it, and then I'd make sure they have instruction in Chinese at school. I wouldn't expect them to take classes in Chinese--I'd have them taught in English with Chinese language instruction on the side. I can't think of anything more annoying and difficult than trying to have a conversation at home with my family in a language I barely speak.

As I said before, I don't get some of you. We've always had ESL instruction in this country--we're a nation of immigrants--but now it's some kind of liberal plot? If you want new comers to speak English, then it's reasonable to teach it in our schools. I'm not a liberal, and I think you're all nuts.
 
Old 05-16-2012, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Murika
2,526 posts, read 2,505,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
And just why don't these Hispanic students already know English when they enter school? Couldn't be because most of their parents are here illegally and therefore have only been taught Spanish in the home, would it? It sickens me to think of the tax dollars we are spending on ESL classes and other costs of educating the kids of parents who are here illegally.
You know, even legal immigrants speak their native language at home unless one spouse happens to be from yet another country. In the latter situation, couples often decide to use English to communicate.

If a mother is a non-native English speaker, the chances of her using her native language when talking to her child are quite high. This is not confined to hispanics, either.

I have friends from a variety of countries who live in the US. The mothers speak Czech, German, Swedish, and Spanish to their children. In part, this is done because family back home does not speak English and parents want their children to be able to communicate with Grandparents, etc.

Of those foreign families, the only child who has failed to learn proper English is the Czech girl - but she is the only child where BOTH parents are native Czech speakers. All other couples have a father who is from yet another country (US, the Netherlands, Poland). Thus, while the mother still uses her native language to speak to her child, the language spoken between the parents is English.

This makes a huge difference... My daughter is almost four and can speak two languages. Since my wife and I speak English at home, English is clearly the language of choice for me daughter - it is her default, if you will. I am certain if my wife was from the same country as I, my daughter would likely have a much easier time with my native language - because we'd be speaking it at home.

Last edited by vamos; 05-16-2012 at 10:34 AM..
 
Old 05-16-2012, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Moderate conservative for Obama.
833 posts, read 528,864 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mb1547 View Post
Oh good grief. If you and your family immigrate legally from ANY country, are you going to speak the new language at home or the language you grew up in? If I moved to China, I'd want my kids to be able to speak English, and I'd speak it to them at home so they learn it, and then I'd make sure they have instruction in Chinese at school. I wouldn't expect them to take classes in Chinese--I'd have them taught in English with Chinese language instruction on the side. I can't think of anything more annoying and difficult than trying to have a conversation at home with my family in a language I barely speak.

As I said before, I don't get some of you. We've always had ESL instruction in this country--we're a nation of immigrants--but now it's some kind of liberal plot? If you want new comers to speak English, then it's reasonable to teach it in our schools. I'm not a liberal, and I think you're all nuts.

YES YES AND YES.....

From one MODERN age conservative to another, not the outcast idiots that hide behind the gop curtain.
 
Old 05-16-2012, 10:28 AM
 
10,115 posts, read 6,737,743 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lone-Ranger View Post
YES YES AND YES.....

From one MODERN age conservative to another, not the outcast idiots that hide behind the gop curtain.
They need to get out of the republican party so the grownups can run it again....
 
Old 05-16-2012, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Murika
2,526 posts, read 2,505,826 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by All American NYC View Post
There shouldn't have to be a choice of what language to press.
On the other hand, private business has an interest in catering to their potential customers. Thus, they should be free to choose what group of customers they'd like to cater to - if its' Spanish-speakers, then so be it. It's a free country that embraces capitalism.

Government's job is to serve its citizens. Since there is no official language in this country, government cannot enforce English-only - especially if a large percentage of its citizens are non-English speakers. If a country's or state's constituents are largely Spanish speakers, then government needs to allow for a Spanish option to ensure it can still serve its citizens.

It's quite simple:

->Government MUST serve its people.

-> English is not the official language.

->Many of its people speak Spanish only.

->Therefore, government MUST offer Spanish as an option in order to be able to serve its people.
 
Old 05-16-2012, 10:42 AM
 
9,243 posts, read 7,106,377 times
Reputation: 2199
Quote:
Originally Posted by chicagonut View Post
And just why don't these Hispanic students already know English when they enter school? Couldn't be because most of their parents are here illegally and therefore have only been taught Spanish in the home, would it? It sickens me to think of the tax dollars we are spending on ESL classes and other costs of educating the kids of parents who are here illegally.
Also to be a citizen & naturalize you must know English except in rare cases the elderly are exempt.
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